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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

With the start of Pride Month (U.S.), I have a bad feeling about this. I know some people that usually get involved in events but they are talking about skipping them this year due to the increased potential for violence. I have attended the local big fair on occasion but am likely to skip it myself.
 
Hercules56 said:
This really is an attack on speech in a way that is totally out of control. Speech that makes people offended or uncomfortable may not be right, but it is certainly not an act of violence.

This needs to stop.
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So, I'm guessing your intent in this initial post was to demonstrate an even more out of control statement? Since a little minimal guide to pronouns that casually mentions "...but can also be considered an act of violence." is an "attack on speech"?

Whose speech is actually being attacked by this little article? Is this article putting people in jail? Beating them with...erm...pixels until they can't talk?

Sheesh. We've had who-knows how long of right-wing nutjobs saying LGBT people are literally responsible for wildfires and hurricanes. "Can be considered an act of violence" barely makes the hyperbole meter twitch. If at all...I'm sure a lot of the angry right-wingers would beat up or just flat out shoot someone who called them the wrong gender.
 
Cat Not Included said:
So, I'm guessing your intent in this initial post was to demonstrate an even more out of control statement? Since a little minimal guide to pronouns that casually mentions "...but can also be considered an act of violence." is an "attack on speech"?

Whose speech is actually being attacked by this little article? Is this article putting people in jail? Beating them with...erm...pixels until they can't talk?

Sheesh. We've had who-knows how long of right-wing nutjobs saying LGBT people are literally responsible for wildfires and hurricanes. "Can be considered an act of violence" barely makes the hyperbole meter twitch. If at all...I'm sure a lot of the angry right-wingers would beat up or just flat out shoot someone who called them the wrong gender.
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Calling a mere insult a literal act of "violence" is definitely a form of censorship. Its goal is to shut people up, and if they don't shut up, justify violence against them. If incorrect pronouns literally equal violence than physical force in self defense is justified.
 
Cat Not Included said:
Sheesh. We've had who-knows how long of right-wing nutjobs saying LGBT people are literally responsible for wildfires and hurricanes. "Can be considered an act of violence" barely makes the hyperbole meter twitch.
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If the views expressed in the link were a fringe position, I would agree with you. The problem is that it's not a fringe position. It's the default position within universities.
 
At the risk of Arguing By Dictionary, I think that part of the issue here is in the definition of the word "violence". Some dictionaries (Merriam-Webster) define violence as "the use of physical force to harm or injure". By that definition, no, deliberately misgendering someone is not "violence". Other dictionaries (Cambridge) define it as "actions or words intended to hurt people". By that definition, it is.

Regardless, I think that the greater part of the issue is intent. I would say that deliberately misgendering someone, especially after you have already been corrected, is certainly an aggressive act, and may fall under some definitions of violence. Its intent can only be to hurt, disparage or disrespect. At the very least it ignores someone's stated wishes and devalues them. I'd be okay if someone called that "violence", though I think "aggression" is probably better, as it is less likely to provoke a reaction like the OP, where "violence" is defined as inherently physical in nature.

Misgendering someone out of ignorance about their gender status, or simply making a mistake, is neither violent nor aggressive.

Sorry if this is going over ground that someone else has covered. I'm going to catch up on the rest of the thread now.
 
Hercules56 said:
Barbara refers to herself as a "she".

Mike does not believe that he is indeed a woman but is instead a man dressed as a woman, so he refers to Barbara as "he".

Mike has therefore committed an act of oppression and violence against Barbara??? An act of violence that justifies physical self-defense???

******* ridiculous.
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For what reason is Mike misgendering her? Because depending on why he chooses to do that, it could indeed be an aggressive act.

Not all aggressive acts justify a physical force response, by the way.
 
ahhell said:
On the other hand, I almost never use a gendered pronoun to address someone within in earshot, so who cares? Its an insult on the order of mispronouncing someone's name.
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Again, it depends why you're mispronouncing it. If it's just because you don't know, then yeah, that's not an aggressive act. But if you're deliberately doing it despite knowing the correct pronunciation?
 
arthwollipot said:
At the risk of Arguing By Dictionary, I think that part of the issue here is in the definition of the word "violence". Some dictionaries (Merriam-Webster) define violence as "the use of physical force to harm or injure". By that definition, no, deliberately misgendering someone is not "violence". Other dictionaries (Cambridge) define it as "actions or words intended to hurt people". By that definition, it is.
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What about "this thread is making me violently ill"?
 
Donal said:
I'm confused. This isn't in the student handbook. It's not in any bylaws or anything. It's essentially a blog post for a student group that is trying to discuss misgendering people.

At worst, it seems a well-meaning person with no actual authority made a poor choice of words in a document of no consequence.

Is that the controversey?
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Yep. For some, that's enough.
 
arthwollipot said:
For what reason is Mike misgendering her? Because depending on why he chooses to do that, it could indeed be an aggressive act.

Not all aggressive acts justify a physical force response, by the way.
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Aggression is not synonymous with violence or oppression.
 
Thermal said:
In fairness, if some avocado toast muncher referred to me as zim or xe, imma slap a bitch.
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And here we have the first reference to neopronouns in the thread. I'll say here what I've said before:

The number of people who insist on a neopronoun is vanishingly small. It was a neat concept that was tried, but that never really caught on. Where gender is ambiguous, almost nobody will complain if you simply use the singular "they".
 
arthwollipot said:
And here we have the first reference to neopronouns in the thread. I'll say here what I've said before:

The number of people who insist on a neopronoun is vanishingly small. It was a neat concept that was tried, but that never really caught on. Where gender is ambiguous, almost nobody will complain if you simply use the singular "they".
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The OP article recommended the use of neopronouns. Which sound kind of Matrix-esque in the abstract.

Most of the time I've heard "they" applied in this forum, it was by a member who knew damn right well that the other was a guy, and it appeared to be a catty emasculation. So it kind of leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
 
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Thermal said:
The OP article recommended the use of neopronouns. Which sound kind of Matrix-esque in the abstract.

Most of the time I've heard "they" applied in this forum, it was by a member who knew damn right well that the other was a guy, and it appeared to be a catty emasculation. So it kind of leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
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On the other hand, I know several people who use they/them. One of them, I changed their nappies when they were a baby, so I know for a fact what's between their legs. It doesn't matter. They/them is the commonly used gender-neutral pronoun. Like I said, neopronouns have been suggested - going back to the 60s from memory - but they have never caught on.
 
Hercules56 said:
Calling a mere insult a literal act of "violence" is definitely a form of censorship. Its goal is to shut people up, and if they don't shut up, justify violence against them.If incorrect pronouns literally equal violence than physical force in self defense is justified.
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How do you know that’s the goal?

Even if you’re correct about that…that’s not a form of censorship.

If an honest-to-goodness neo-Nazi says he’s going to burn all the Jewish gender ideology books when he’s in control, that’s not a form of censorship.

This stuff is elementary for anyone with a genuine sense of the importance of free speech. Get a grip.
 
Hercules56 said:
Calling a mere insult a literal act of "violence" is definitely a form of censorship. Its goal is to shut people up, and if they don't shut up, justify violence against them. If incorrect pronouns literally equal violence than physical force in self defense is justified.
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Exactly. And people who kill themselves due to relentless verbal bullying are the enemies of free speech, so who cares if they die?
Those who wish to 'just say harmless words' day in day out should be free and unobstructed to do so.

Wait.... that also means that those who wish to shout over and insult right wing speakers at universities should also be completely free to do so right? After all, it's just words.
 
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