Using the Justice Department to influence the election, again.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Branching off from the ACORN voter fraud (not) thread, it seems the plot thickens. I've been wondering what the deal was with Fox News and Lou Dobbs going on and on about ACORN turning in bad voter registrations. These right wing talking pointers continue to cry "ACORN voter fraud" when there is no evidence of anyone using fake registrations to vote, and lots of evidence the problem is simply caused by paying low wage workers to register voters. People are faking the forms and getting paid to not work. ACORN is getting ripped off, they are not allowed to not turn in the forms once they receive them. No one is voting under the name, Micky Mouse.

But then McCain makes the outrageous statement in the last debate that Obama needed to be investigated for his ties to the "biggest voter fraud ever" or something to that effect. It was pretty off the wall just as the, "Obama's a Muslim terrorist" nonsense is.

But then, low and behold the Republican strategy begins to take shape. Challenge voter registration in a big enough way in a few key states. Eliminate a couple hundred thousand newly registered voters here and there and you swing the election. So they fake the ACORN report and bad voter registrations are claimed to be a plot to vote under fake names.

But the next action really showed their hand. Two unidentified 'agents' from the Justice Department "leaked" to the news media that ACORN was being investigated in 'coincidentally' a number of key states. This was 'coincidentally' the day after McCain's debate line.

Does the Valerie Plame news leak ring a bell? And the previous Justice Department scandal currently under investigation by an Independent Prosecutor was about using the Department to influence the 04 and 06 elections.

It has all the hallmarks of a conspiracy from the White House to the Republican leadership to McCain and his campaign. I hate to say it is a conspiracy that I think there is a ton of evidence for, given our usual skepticism about CTs. But folks, the evidence is there.


And BTW, the voter challenges has a number of fingers. The court case in Ohio the Supreme Court just decided is another one of them. That one the Reps lost. They wanted a list of registered voters whose homes were foreclosed on. It is believed by some the Reps wanted to use the list to challenge voters from Democratic leaning neighborhoods on the basis they had moved and not updated their registrations. Ohio elections officials said it was too late in the game to do that. They should have done it earlier.

 

[Oliver]

It's the same topic, isn't it? :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126561

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's the same topic, isn't it? :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126561

No, not at all. This is completely different. Though the ACORN and the Ohio election ruling threads are tangentially related.

I thought the ACORN thread was wearing down. This is a new twist. It has little to do with the Supreme Court ruling other than the legal maneuver was another of the Republican Party tactics to eliminate legit voters in key states. The use of the US Justice Department to influence this election at a time when they are under investigation for illegal acts influencing the last 2 federal elections is a whole bigger mackerel.

 

[Oliver]

No, not at all. This is completely different. Though the ACORN and the Ohio election ruling threads are tangentially related.

I thought the ACORN thread was wearing down. This is a new twist.

*lol* That's cool for me. There have not been much Acorn threads anyway.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here are two related stories that will add perspective to this matter.

Obama camp calls for special prosecutor in fraud investigation

GOP Exploits ACORN Probe -

In a replay of a tactic used to help secure President George W. Bush’s second term, Republicans – aided by investigative agencies of the federal government – are making a campaign issue out of voter-registration forms with fake names like “Mickey Mouse.”

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And some background on the Special Prosecutor for the Attorney firings:

Prosecutor named to probe US attorneys' firings

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In the words of a Bloomberg reporter quoting the Obama campaign attorney:

Obama Lawyer Asks for Probe Into Vote-Fraud Claims (Update1)

Bauer said the news leaks are part of a coordinated effort by McCain's presidential campaign and Republicans. They are ``fomenting specious vote-fraud allegations and there are disturbing indications of official involvement or collusion,'' Bauer said.

``It is apparent,'' he wrote, that law enforcement officials are serving ``improper political objectives'' that could inhibit voter participation in the Nov. 4 election. The aim is to ``suppress the vote and to unduly influence investigations and prosecutions,'' Bauer wrote.

Mukasey appointed special prosecutor Nora Dannehy to look into the U.S. attorney firings in 2006.

I say hooray for the Dems taking this one on instead of waiting for the tactic to actually cost them the election.

 

[Puppycow]

One way to affect the election if you could manage to do it would be to create confusion and long lines at the polling places where voters favoring one side tend to vote. Some people would give up on voting rather than wait in a line for hours. I'm not saying that this is what the republicans are doing, but if I was trying to influence the election, this comes to mind as a potential strategy. Put up as many hurdles as possible to slow things down and make the lines longer.

The NY Times recently ran a story about what seems to be illegal purging of voter rolls by the states.

October 9, 2008
States’ Actions to Block Voters Appear Illegal
By IAN URBINA
Tens of thousands of eligible voters in at least six swing states have been removed from the rolls or have been blocked from registering in ways that appear to violate federal law, according to a review of state records and Social Security data by The New York Times.

The actions do not seem to be coordinated by one party or the other, nor do they appear to be the result of election officials intentionally breaking rules, but are apparently the result of mistakes in the handling of the registrations and voter files as the states tried to comply with a 2002 federal law, intended to overhaul the way elections are run.

Still, because Democrats have been more aggressive at registering new voters this year, according to state election officials, any heightened screening of new applications may affect their party’s supporters disproportionately. The screening or trimming of voter registration lists in the six states — Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and North Carolina — could also result in problems at the polls on Election Day: people who have been removed from the rolls are likely to show up only to be challenged by political party officials or election workers, resulting in confusion, long lines and heated tempers.
Some states allow such voters to cast provisional ballots. But they are often not counted because they require added verification.

 

[Whiplash]

This is just so patently ridiuclous, it might as well be a conspiracy theory. I really feel sorry for anyone who goes down this road. It's one thing to know that fraud is going on and try to spin it in one way or another. It's another to not really believe it, despite the investigations.. But to not only deny it, but imply a major ongoing conspiracy behind the whole thing, is insanity.

I'm sorry skeptigirl, but what you are suggesting is virtually no better than 911 CT's. It's utterly ridiculous. Vote fraud has been spiraling out of control since 2000. I live in Milwaukee. I saw our local media covering the smokes for votes fiasco, and not just our one local conservative radio station. It was all over all the stations, and in the Milwaukee Journal. But it all got whitewashed quickly and was out of the news in no time.

It's now gotten so bad that these people feel so emboldend as to go completely over the top about it without fear of reprocussion. The proof will be in the pudding. I guarantee that, in time, the investigations will show the truth. I only hope that, in the end, some of you will be intellectually honest enough to actually acknowledge it.

Sometimes many of you demonstrate about 1 degree of seperation from outright truthers. This entire thread is so ridiculous it makes me sick.

And anyone who stands against trying to stop voter fraud get's absolutely zero respect from me. Spare me the "if it stops even one person from voting" BS...

 

[Dragoonster]

This is a systemic problem. Allowing political parties to challenge voters, particularly at election polling places (I guess that's legal?) just asks for trouble. And if the GOP is doing it now, the DEMs could easily do it next election, or some places in this one. Along with nonstandard voting machines/paper policies between states, and quirky rules on who's allowed to vote via residence etc., it's a wonder every election isn't decried as fraud. Well, maybe every one is. But theories of fraud seem to be based on some truth, and at times the "fraud" is actually legalized. National, state and local laws seem to offer all kinds of loopholes that can be exploited. Reminds me of gerrymandering fights.

I just found out this week that I was purged from the voting rolls, only because I'd been wondering why I hadn't gotten my mail-in ballot. Earlier this year the Post Office sent some of my mail back to sender automatically. Not sure why it happened but for four months I didn't notice, and it took another few weeks to get it fixed. Found out yesterday one of the things sent back was some kind of voting mailer, so they put me as ineligible after seven years of being auto-registered. Re-registered today, hopefully I'll be able to vote.

 

[Puppycow]

This is a systemic problem. Allowing political parties to challenge voters, particularly at election polling places (I guess that's legal?) just asks for trouble. And if the GOP is doing it now, the DEMs could easily do it next election, or some places in this one. Along with nonstandard voting machines/paper policies between states, and quirky rules on who's allowed to vote via residence etc., it's a wonder every election isn't decried as fraud. Well, maybe every one is. But theories of fraud seem to be based on some truth, and at times the "fraud" is actually legalized. National, state and local laws seem to offer all kinds of loopholes that can be exploited. Reminds me of gerrymandering fights.

I just found out this week that I was purged from the voting rolls, only because I'd been wondering why I hadn't gotten my mail-in ballot. Earlier this year the Post Office sent some of my mail back to sender automatically. Not sure why it happened but for four months I didn't notice, and it took another few weeks to get it fixed. Found out yesterday one of the things sent back was some kind of voting mailer, so they put me as ineligible after seven years of being auto-registered. Re-registered today, hopefully I'll be able to vote.

Wow. Good thing you noticed.

 

[chipmunk stew]

This is just so patently ridiuclous, it might as well be a conspiracy theory. I really feel sorry for anyone who goes down this road. It's one thing to know that fraud is going on and try to spin it in one way or another. It's another to not really believe it, despite the investigations.. But to not only deny it, but imply a major ongoing conspiracy behind the whole thing, is insanity.

I'm sorry skeptigirl, but what you are suggesting is virtually no better than 911 CT's. It's utterly ridiculous. Vote fraud has been spiraling out of control since 2000. I live in Milwaukee. I saw our local media covering the smokes for votes fiasco, and not just our one local conservative radio station. It was all over all the stations, and in the Milwaukee Journal. But it all got whitewashed quickly and was out of the news in no time.

It's now gotten so bad that these people feel so emboldend as to go completely over the top about it without fear of reprocussion. The proof will be in the pudding. I guarantee that, in time, the investigations will show the truth. I only hope that, in the end, some of you will be intellectually honest enough to actually acknowledge it.

Sometimes many of you demonstrate about 1 degree of seperation from outright truthers. This entire thread is so ridiculous it makes me sick.

And anyone who stands against trying to stop voter fraud get's absolutely zero respect from me. Spare me the "if it stops even one person from voting" BS...

The problem is, your guarantee notwithstanding, this widespread voter fraud you're speaking of appears to exist only in the minds of paranoid Republicans. Registration fraud is a separate issue.

The number of people found guilty of voting illegally in recent presidential elections is in the tens.

 

[Daylight]

In the words of a Bloomberg reporter quoting the Obama campaign attorney:

Obama Lawyer Asks for Probe Into Vote-Fraud Claims (Update1)


I say hooray for the Dems taking this one on instead of waiting for the tactic to actually cost them the election.

This may have some legs to it compared to the ACORN woo.

 

[Ziggurat]

The number of people found guilty of voting illegally in recent presidential elections is in the tens.

Is that because the number of people who voted illegally is really that low? Or is it because there's not much of a mechanism to catch people who vote illegally? The problem is that there's not much we can do right now to figure out which it is. And while it's true that fraudulent registration doesn't automatically mean fraudulent voting, the former makes the latter a lot easier to get away with. So you can quibble all you want to about what labels to attach to the fraud that ACORN has been complicit in (and they have been complicit in fraud), but it's a serious problem, and it should be treated as a serious problem. Some people here apparently aren't interested in doing so because they're more worried about making sure their candidate wins than in making sure that the democratic process is protected. Ironic, given the criticism over shoddy security in electronic voting systems that the democrats were rightly upset over back in 2000. There's no evidence that it changed any outcomes (just like there's no evidence that ACORN's massive registration fraud led to voting fraud), but the process still matters, both then and now.

 

[XBoxWarrior]

This is just so patently ridiuclous, it might as well be a conspiracy theory. I really feel sorry for anyone who goes down this road. It's one thing to know that fraud is going on and try to spin it in one way or another. It's another to not really believe it, despite the investigations.. But to not only deny it, but imply a major ongoing conspiracy behind the whole thing, is insanity.

I'm sorry skeptigirl, but what you are suggesting is virtually no better than 911 CT's. It's utterly ridiculous. Vote fraud has been spiraling out of control since 2000. I live in Milwaukee. I saw our local media covering the smokes for votes fiasco, and not just our one local conservative radio station. It was all over all the stations, and in the Milwaukee Journal. But it all got whitewashed quickly and was out of the news in no time.

It's now gotten so bad that these people feel so emboldend as to go completely over the top about it without fear of reprocussion. The proof will be in the pudding. I guarantee that, in time, the investigations will show the truth. I only hope that, in the end, some of you will be intellectually honest enough to actually acknowledge it.

Sometimes many of you demonstrate about 1 degree of seperation from outright truthers. This entire thread is so ridiculous it makes me sick.

And anyone who stands against trying to stop voter fraud get's absolutely zero respect from me. Spare me the "if it stops even one person from voting" BS...

Wow...the Squirrels on my deck like the Acorns, and "Whiplash" has made his "one" post that he don't.

I like squirrels.

p.s Holy Crap....Lou Dobbs just came on my TV. Channel change ensues;.

 

[chipmunk stew]

Is that because the number of people who voted illegally is really that low? Or is it because there's not much of a mechanism to catch people who vote illegally? The problem is that there's not much we can do right now to figure out which it is.

Huh? We know exactly which registered voters have voted. It's a trivial task to run an analysis on the post-voting data and see if any weird discrepancies arise that would signal large-scale vote fraud. The fact is, when such analysis is done, it turns out that, not surprisingly, the dead people, the Mickey Mouses, and the Joe Mamas don't show up to vote.

And while it's true that fraudulent registration doesn't automatically mean fraudulent voting, the former makes the latter a lot easier to get away with.

How so? HAVA still requires states to reconcile their voter rolls. It still allows legitimate challenges to individual voters. Many states still require first-time voters to come with ID. If you try to vote fraudulently and get caught, you'll still spend time in jail. That's proven to be a great deterant against going and pulling the lever for your dead uncle, much less organizing a bunch of homeless people to go pull the lever for Heywood Jablomey and Hugh G. Rection.

So you can quibble all you want to about what labels to attach to the fraud that ACORN has been complicit in (and they have been complicit in fraud), but it's a serious problem, and it should be treated as a serious problem.

It should. But it should be dealt with in some way other than large-scale challenges of individual voters at the polls. There's just no evidence to justify it, and plenty of evidence suggesting that it discourages legitimate votes.

Some people here apparently aren't interested in doing so because they're more worried about making sure their candidate wins than in making sure that the democratic process is protected.

I'm more worried about making sure legitimate voters are not discouraged from voting, or even disenfranchised, in a clumsy effort to protect the democratic process or a cynical effort to suppress turnout.

Ironic, given the criticism over shoddy security in electronic voting systems that the democrats were rightly upset over back in 2000. There's no evidence that it changed any outcomes (just like there's no evidence that ACORN's massive registration fraud led to voting fraud), but the process still matters, both then and now.

I agree, we need to ensure that people feel confident in the process. We can't do that by punishing the whole class for the one kid who's acting up.

 

[Ziggurat]

I agree, we need to ensure that people feel confident in the process. We can't do that by punishing the whole class for the one kid who's acting up.

You will notice I did not demand any particular remedy. My point was not that the republicans are right to try any particular fix, but more that skeptigirl was wrong to essentially try to brush the problem under the rug.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is just so patently ridiuclous, it might as well be a conspiracy theory. I really feel sorry for anyone who goes down this road. It's one thing to know that fraud is going on and try to spin it in one way or another. It's another to not really believe it, despite the investigations.. But to not only deny it, but imply a major ongoing conspiracy behind the whole thing, is insanity.

I'm sorry skeptigirl, but what you are suggesting is virtually no better than 911 CT's. It's utterly ridiculous. Vote fraud has been spiraling out of control since 2000. I live in Milwaukee. I saw our local media covering the smokes for votes fiasco, and not just our one local conservative radio station. It was all over all the stations, and in the Milwaukee Journal. But it all got whitewashed quickly and was out of the news in no time.

It's now gotten so bad that these people feel so emboldend as to go completely over the top about it without fear of reprocussion. The proof will be in the pudding. I guarantee that, in time, the investigations will show the truth. I only hope that, in the end, some of you will be intellectually honest enough to actually acknowledge it.

Sometimes many of you demonstrate about 1 degree of seperation from outright truthers. This entire thread is so ridiculous it makes me sick.

And anyone who stands against trying to stop voter fraud get's absolutely zero respect from me. Spare me the "if it stops even one person from voting" BS...

I'll take this as you saying you refuse to address the evidence so you will equate the idea to woo and dismiss it out of hand.

It is not imaginary that the firing of 8 federal attorneys is under investigation by a special prosecutor because of the evidence the Bush admin was using the DOJ to influence elections.

It is not imaginary that there is no voter fraud only registration fraud yet the Republicans are spinning that as voter fraud.

It is not imaginary that McCain grossly overstated the claim of voter fraud and tried to tie Obama to it implying he was plotting with ACORN to stuff thousands of ballot boxes in key states. It is not imaginary that the very next day officials from the Justice Department "leaked" confidential information to the press claiming the department was investigating ACORN in key swing states.

It is not imaginary that "Scooter" Libby was convicted on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice, and making false statements to federal investigators over the fake leaking of information to the press in order to discredit Ambassador Wilson's criticisms of the claim Saddam was trying to acquire nukes. Top Bush administration officials also repeatedly leaked information to the press then went on talk shows the following day and claimed, "the media had reported" whatever it was they were using that day to promote the dangers of Iraq. There is a history of the Republican leadership using fake news leaks to manipulate public information. This tactic is very well documented.


Care to address the facts instead of an ad hom tactic dismissing the matter?

 

[chipmunk stew]

You will notice I did not demand any particular remedy. My point was not that the republicans are right to try any particular fix, but more that skeptigirl was wrong to essentially try to brush the problem under the rug.

Fair enough. Then at least on the narrow point that ACORN's process for collecting new registrations contributes to the erosion of the public trust and needs to be fixed, we're on the same page.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

I just found out this week that I was purged from the voting rolls, only because I'd been wondering why I hadn't gotten my mail-in ballot. Earlier this year the Post Office sent some of my mail back to sender automatically. Not sure why it happened but for four months I didn't notice, and it took another few weeks to get it fixed. Found out yesterday one of the things sent back was some kind of voting mailer, so they put me as ineligible after seven years of being auto-registered. Re-registered today, hopefully I'll be able to vote.

Wow! This happened to someone else in our thread on the voter disenfranchisement. I'll go hunt down the post.

I found out about the King County vote challenges because a Republican friend of mine was challenged. He thought the Dems had done it until I pointed out to him that in the regular election in which his signature was challenged, a person's party affiliation is not on the ballot. It turned out this was part of the Republicans targeting the heavily Democratic King County. Of course a few Republicans were going to be in the mix. Later I found out the rest of the details about McKay being fired and his refusal to investigate the claimed voter fraud because the claim was based on only challenging King County voters. As I said, the Republicans went on to publicize that only King County had problems when 1)Most of the challenged votes were valid, and 2)No other county was looked at for comparison.