using religion to avoid vaccination...

[DRBUZZ0]

If means you get the shot, you're immune for a few years, then the immunity goes away.
Then you're open to being infected again.

Yeah that's why they have "boosters" for certain things after a few years.

 

[robinson]

How can you tell if immunity is waning? Do any of the current vaccines required by law contain active organisms? So that if it doesn't work, a child becomes ill with the disease? If so, is that disease now infectious to others?

In other words, can vaccines actually cause a disease if the patient doesn't gain immunity? And is that pathogen now more resistant to a vaccine?

If something is legislated, you have to let somebody stick a needle in, and inject a potentially dangerous substance into your child, you might think every bit of information about what can happen would be publicly available, and easy to find.

And this information would be required reading for everybody who get vaccinated. Is this the case? Is there literature that is handed out with every vaccine? Side effects, risks, possible results, warning signs, studies showing why the information is valid and trusted?

If not, isn't that dumb?

 

[Deetee]

How do we know if somebody has resistance to a disease after they are vaccinated?

2 ways - either clinically, such as when there is an outbreak of say measles in a school, and you then calculate what proportion of those who previously had vaccination also developed the disease, and via laboratory means when you can measure the level of protective antibody in the blood. This is commonly done for Hep B, where experience and observational studies have shown that a certain level of Anti-HBs antibody in the blood is sufficient to prevent infection on exposure. This may be used to judge when booster vaccines are needed, and why vaccinees have a blood test every 5-10 years to check.

What does that mean? -> the immunity from the vaccine just wanes

No immunity is lifelong really, but some diseases/vaccines fare better than others. Immunity from naturally acquired chicken pox wanes throughout life, which is why it can reactivate as clinical disease in older people (Causing shingles). The same applies with the vaccine - immunity will wane after time, but the situation is different since the person has never had chicken pox before, so a drop in immunity may render them susceptible to a primary chicken pox attack if they are exposed to a case.

Are there countries that don't vaccinate against measles?

Not that I know of.

Do those that the vaccine doesn't work, do they get the disease? And is this creating vaccine resistant strains?

Interesting point. In Hep b widespread vaccination is thought to lead to a higher incidence of Hep B core mutant virus which can cause illness in someone already vaccinated. It is rare.
However, we have noticed that where populations have been immunised with pneumovax/prevenar, which only cover the most common strains of pneumococcus, there is an increase in incidence of infections with different strains of pneumococcus. So the vaccine may be selecting out less common strains and these become more prevalent. Not resistance, per se, but an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

 

[kellyb]

It's all I can do not to sign up for that forum and try to talk some sense into those idiot mothers before we have another outbreak of whooping cough.

Having people not vaccinating can bring back some things (measles being the most obvious), but whooping cough isn't one of them. Pretty much everyone catches whooping cough subclinically every 3-5 years at the most, or every 10 years or so at the longest. That's why we have over 3 million cases a year (and that might be an under-estimate) in the US in spite of a >96% vaccine coverage.
Both vaccine immunity and natural immunity fade really, really quickly, and don't really work to prevent the bacteria from spreading in any meaningful kind of way.

 

[robinson]

I wonder if vaccinations are producing a future problem like antibiotics have created. Rather than eliminating a disease, we are creating new ones. Un-natural selection of the most dangerous strains of organisms that used to be a big problem, but not an epidemic.

 

[kellyb]

However, we have noticed that where populations have been immunised with pneumovax/prevenar, which only cover the most common strains of pneumococcus, there is an increase in incidence of infections with different strains of pneumococcus. So the vaccine may be selecting out less common strains and these become more prevalent. Not resistance, per se, but an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

Meningococcal vaccination and h. influenzae have done that, too, but to a lesser extent. With n. meningititis, the W-135 serotype emerged in the middle east from conjugate vaccination against A, B, C, and Y.
With h. influenzae, it's mostly NTHi that's exploded in the US and UK, with lesser (much smaller) outbreaks of Hia, Hif, etc. here and there.

ETA:
Pneumovax doesn't cause serotype replacement, by the way. The polysaccharide vaccines don't create a bactericidal immune response that prevents carriage, which is what's needed for nonvaccine serotypes to fill in the gap. Pneumovax would need to work a little better first to do that, basically.

 

[Chris Haynes]

...An example of the failure of herd immunity was seen a few years ago in London, when some children became seriously ill from measles (I think one developed serious permanent brain damage, and another went blind). These were children who had renal transplants, and in whom measles vaccine was contraindicated - they relied on herd immunity for their protection, and as we know, post MMR scare/Wakefield, this has been inadequate in many parts of the UK. They had caught measles from a someone who visited the hospital and who actually had measles (because his parents had refused to let him be vaccinated).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece

Joe, who was discharged from hospital at the end of August, is unlikely to regain the full use of his left leg and has partial paralysis of his tongue and throat.

Matthew, who was not discharged from hospital until December 21, is more severely disabled. His optic nerves were permanently scarred by the virus and he is now registered blind.

He is also virtually confined to a wheelchair and has had to drop out of his mainstream school. Karen said: “Before he had measles, he could go out, he could play football, he could do what he wanted.

The article continues...

Just as in Britain, vaccination rates in Ireland fell sharply after Wakefield’s scare and in 2000, there was an outbreak of measles. More than 1,600 children were infected, more than 350 were hospitalised and three died.

Naomi Pop, just 14 months old, was among the victims. Her mother, Maria, 20, was not unduly worried when Naomi contracted measles just four weeks before she was due to have the triple jab. She said: “I thought to myself, ‘Measles, so what?’ I mean, how bad could that be?”

Within a few days Naomi had developed acute pneumonia. It took a year for her to die. She suffered several infections and progressive brain damage and finally died on March 14, 2001.

Other parents have yet to learn whether their children have suffered long-term damage from measles. Laurie Laird’s daughter Madeline contracted the virus when she was five months old. She recovered but at 20 months is still barely speaking.

“It could be simply that she’s a late bloomer, but she’s surprisingly behind for her age,” said Laird, from London, who must wait to see if his daughter has suffered any lasting effects from the disease. “The hysteria caused by Wakefield is exactly why my child got her measles. I’m incredibly angry.”

 

[Deetee]

That's the one.
My comment was only innacurate in that I assumed they had caught the infection from an unvaccinated contact (this may or may not have been the case - the source was unknown).

 

[Chris Haynes]

I should also note that Orac wrote about this:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/using_religion_to_avoid_vaccination_revi.php

He has some interesting comments about the "doctor" who is advising parents on avoiding vaccines:

It's another example of bad reporting that the newspaper failed to mention that Dr. Levitan is not just a pediatrician but a homeopath with a long history of being hostile to vaccination, who even used to write a regular column for The National Journal of Homeopathy in which she apparently parroted some of the dumbest antivaccination canards (the whole "toxic chemicals," "mercury," and "formaldehyde" schtick) for a long time. Clearly, she is an activist, not an expert, and her uncritical acceptance of such antivaccination talking points raises serious questions about her critical thinking skills.

 

[DRBUZZ0]

I wonder if vaccinations are producing a future problem like antibiotics have created. Rather than eliminating a disease, we are creating new ones. Un-natural selection of the most dangerous strains of organisms that used to be a big problem, but not an epidemic.

Yeah like they did to smallpox... oh wait. Nevermind

 

[DRBUZZ0]

How can you tell if immunity is waning? Do any of the current vaccines required by law contain active organisms? So that if it doesn't work, a child becomes ill with the disease? If so, is that disease now infectious to others?

No. Some vaccines may be based on an organism which is potentially infectious but rendered safe (killed, genetically modified, reduced to just some of the proteins)

A vaccine will not make you ill with the disease, even if you do not respond to the vaccine. It's not just "dilute" like homeopathy woo or something like that.

The only way a vaccine could make you ill is if there is some sort of error in manufacturing or it is contaminated. This happens, but it's very rare. Obviously there are safeguards which is why it's exceedingly rare.

But the same could be said for any product. Any product can be dangerous or hazardous if it's contaminated or somehow defective.

 

[kellyb]

The only way a vaccine could make you ill is if there is some sort of error in manufacturing or it is contaminated. This happens, but it's very rare. Obviously there are safeguards which is why it's exceedingly rare.

No, that's not true. The chickenpox vaccine can give you chickenpox and other can catch chickenpox from the freshly vaccinated. I don't think it's terribly common, but it can and has happened that secondary transmissions have been recorded, and the virus verified as the vaccine strain. OPV, as well. Probably rotavirus, too.

ETA:
http://drugsafetysite.com/vaccine-varicella-virus

A 1997 report described a well-documented case of child-to-mother transmission of varicella-vaccine virus (43). A 12-month-old boy received varicella vaccine and about 3 weeks later had approximately 30 generalized lesions without fever or feeling ill. The lesions were thought to be mild varicella. The 30-year-old mother had a serologic titer negative for varicella and a negative urine pregnancy test at that time. Neither the mother nor her child had any evidence (clinical or laboratory) of immunodeficiency. Sixteen days after appearance of the lesions on her child, she developed a papulovesicular rash diagnosed as varicella. A repeat urine pregnancy was now positive with an estimated gestational age of 5–6 weeks. Five days later, approximately 100 lesions were counted on the mother, who remained afebrile. On repeat test, seroconversion was documented with a positive varicella titer. Virus was isolated from three of the mother's lesions and identified as Oka strain varicella-zoster virus by polymerase chain reaction test, indicating that her lesions resulted from the vaccine administered to her child. She had an elective abortion during the 7th gestational week because of her concerns that the fetus could acquire the congenital varicella syndrome or other malformations. No varicella-zoster virus DNA was isolated from the fetal tissue. The authors, using a transmission rate of 17% reported for vaccinees with leukemia, estimated the risk of virus transmission from a healthy vaccinee with rash to a nonimmune household member to be about 0.85% (43).

 

[Magic 9-Ball]

My thoughts: On the top of the thread, it's my opinion, based on people I actually know, that believe getting vaccinations for their kids is a hazard (e.g. mercury = autism) and I have produced data to some extent refute this to them.

However, I feel certain if they could use the religious aspect to keep their kids from the shots, they would certainly do that, regardless to their actual religious beliefs or the scientific data.

I believe the benefits far outweigh any possible drawbacks. Their minds, however, are made up.

 

[robinson]

No, that's not true. The chickenpox vaccine can give you chickenpox and other can catch chickenpox from the freshly vaccinated.

Isn't the herpes virus used in chickenpox the same one that causes shingles?

What this is really about is fear of vaccines.

Millions of people got SV40 from vaccines. While it is suspected to be involved with cancer, there really hasn't been much research done on it, at least not the kind done with other SVs. I find that unimaginable.

Is there complete and up to date literature about each vaccine? Is this information available? Don't you have a right to know everything about a vaccine? If you are going to be forced to have it injected into your body? Or worse, your child?

 

[kellyb]

Isn't the herpes virus used in chickenpox the same one that causes shingles?

Yep. It shows up again as shingles later in life when it reactivates. You don't totally clear the virus ever...it just goes dormant. The virus's ability to reactivate as shingles is it's survival strategy. Most viruses "burn out" when the populations gets small, but varicella starts reactivating as shingles, so the "fresh" kids can be infected by adults who caught it years or decades ago.
It's a really interesting virus.

Is there complete and up to date literature about each vaccine? Is this information available? Don't you have a right to know everything about a vaccine? If you are going to be forced to have it injected into your body? Or worse, your child?

You can find all kinds of stuff in Pubmed.

 

[-Fran-]

I just saw on the news here that in Sweden there used to be a certain worry about vaccinations a few years ago, but that this trend seems to have all but vanished. Nowadays almost all children are vaccinated it said.

 

[kellyb]

I just saw on the news here that in Sweden there used to be a certain worry about vaccinations a few years ago, but that this trend seems to have all but vanished. Nowadays almost all children are vaccinated it said.

Are vaccines mandatory in Sweden?

It looks like the only ones given universally there are the DTaP, IPV, Hib, and MMR.
http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/sweden.html

In the US, it's that, plus universal:

pneumococcal
influenza
rotavirus
hepA
hepB
varicella

And later...

meningococcal
HPV
TDaP


~~~~~~~~~~~

So that's more than three times as many, and technically, according to the law, if you want to skip even one, you're supposed to not get any at all. (although most people who want to skip one or more find ways around that.)

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I disagree. We force people to do a lot of things they would rather not do. I would rather not pay taxes, and I expect most people are the same, but I am forced to, and I don't mind being forced because it is for the benefit of everyone, including myself. Vaccination is the same.

For example, in Britain, measles is at its worst for at least two decades. The first death from measles for 14 years occured in 2006. There were more measles cases in the first 5 months of 2006 than in the whole of 2003. Although I haven't seen the final figures for the year (not even sure if they've been released yet), that means it is almost certain that 2006 was the worst year since the current method of monitoring began in 1995. People aren't just putting themselves at risk by refusing vaccination, they are putting their children and everyone else at risk. They should be forced to be vaccinated in the same way we force people to learn to drive before letting them loose on the streets.

Fortunately it is not all bad news. Measles vaccination in 2 year olds was below 80% in 2003 and is now in the mid-80s. However, the level required for effective herd immunity is estimated at around 95%.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/hpa/news/articles/press_releases/2006/060615_measles.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4871728.stm

An excellent post cuddles.

I have posted about vaccination before - and I apologize in advance to all those who have endured my rants about this subject but I would like to put this debate not just on a 'theoretical' level but one which deals with real people.

My son is 27 years old and is totally deaf and legally blind. He also suffers from extensive mental retardation and a seizure disorder. He lives at home with us and we do pretty well.

In 1979 my wife and I lived in Denmark. Uptake on German Measles vaccination was spotty and we lived in an area where it was lower than most. There was an outbreak during my wife's pregnancy and our son (and the daughter of another couple) were affected.

It's not theory for us - it is real life. If parents do not vaccinate their children then more families are going to have to go through what we do. Personally I think any parent who elects to not vaccinate their child should have to sign a binding agreement that they are, from that moment on, completely responsible for the financial and social effects of any infections their unprotected child may get or pass on. No exceptions.

I find it very hard to post about this without an overwhelming feeling of revulsion at these anti-vax liars and turds. My wife and I know what they are up to.

 

[-Fran-]

Are vaccines mandatory in Sweden?

It looks like the only ones given universally there are the DTaP, IPV, Hib, and MMR.
http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/vaccination/sweden.html

In the US, it's that, plus universal:

pneumococcal
influenza
rotavirus
hepA
hepB
varicella

And later...

meningococcal
HPV
TDaP


~~~~~~~~~~~

So that's more than three times as many, and technically, according to the law, if you want to skip even one, you're supposed to not get any at all. (although most people who want to skip one or more find ways around that.)

I had to check this up a bit. I've no kids, so... have no clue The news item was about how the attitude toward vaccination in Sweden have changed the last few years, from a certain suspicion about the effects of vaccines in some groups of parents, to almost no objections to it at all. It didn't mention much facts about vaccination in itself.

ETA:
Seems they were talking about the south-west area of Sweden. I don't know if the attiude is the same all over Sweden. It also said that not only are almost all parents now positive toward the vaccinations offered for free, but that many also choose to pay for complementary vaccinations, even when they are rather expensive (save for those that really can't afford it).

I found this:

From the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare
http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/en/

It is recommended that all children in Sweden
take part in the general free vaccination
programme. Since 1996 , vaccinations
against diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough,
polio and serious infections caused by the
bacterium Haemophilus influenzae type b
(Hib), along with vaccinations against
measles, mumps and rubella.

[...]

The recommendations of the vaccination
programme are national, but county councils
(vaccinations at child health centres) and
municipalities (vaccinations at schools) are the
ones who make decisions on following the
recommendations and who stand responsible
for ensuring that the programme is
implemented.

[...]

In the view of the National Board of Health and
Welfare, the risks of/with disease far outweigh the
risks of vaccination. In Sweden, however, there are
no demands for obligatory vaccination: parents themselves
can decide whether they want their children
to be vaccinated.

 

[-Fran-]

An excellent post cuddles.

I have posted about vaccination before - and I apologize in advance to all those who have endured my rants about this subject but I would like to put this debate not just on a 'theoretical' level but one which deals with real people.

My son is 27 years old and is totally deaf and legally blind. He also suffers from extensive mental retardation and a seizure disorder. He lives at home with us and we do pretty well.

In 1979 my wife and I lived in Denmark. Uptake on German Measles vaccination was spotty and we lived in an area where it was lower than most. There was an outbreak during my wife's pregnancy and our son (and the daughter of another couple) were affected.

It's not theory for us - it is real life. If parents do not vaccinate their children then more families are going to have to go through what we do. Personally I think any parent who elects to not vaccinate their child should have to sign a binding agreement that they are, from that moment on, completely responsible for the financial and social effects of any infections their unprotected child may get or pass on. No exceptions.

I find it very hard to post about this without an overwhelming feeling of revulsion at these anti-vax liars and turds. My wife and I know what they are up to.

My aunt is deaf for the same reason (Sweden though, not Denmark). She was luckier than your son though, as her deafness is the only effect that struck her, and she lives a normal life. I can well understand how you feel. It could have been avoided so easily.