US Officially Blames Russia

Puppycow said:
It's a good read, and corresponds to the same conclusion I reached.

The other reason this may backfire on Trump opponents is that it overshadows the DNI report that was released a few days ago, and will be conflated with it in the public consciousness. This one is more salacious, less credible. It's a big favor to Trump really, an own goal.

From the intercept article:


The editor of Buzzfeed said that there “is serious reason to doubt the allegations” but published them anyway.

Now look at the risible Facebook comments on the Buzzfeed article:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/kenbensing...es-to-russia?utm_term=.ayxjOdvP2x#.wcNz5MKQwj

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=7505[/qimg]
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Very early yesterday morning, after hearing only the briefest of headlines regarding a possible "sex scandal" type allegation involving Russia, I mused on my drive to work that the perfect move for the Trump team right now would be to release some easily disprovable type of salacious allegation against itself in order to easily disprove it and color the other- more credible- reports of possible collusion as "fake news".

Yes, I am aware that "false flag" operations lie in the realm of conspiracy theories, yet it was one of the first things that occurred to me upon hearing initial reports, and seems like a plausible strategy.

Of course, how would one prove that?
 
Distracted1,

given that any opposing view (i.e. the MSM) already has zero credibility with the Trump crowd, what would be the point?
No, if this was a false flag it backfired, since no matter what we find out, Trump will from now on always be envisioned as the guy who paid for 2 hookers in a Moscow Hotel to pee on a bed. Facts are irrelevant if you managed to hook such an image in people's minds.

None of this will work for Trump: the more he pushes for harder control of the media, the more he will be accused of trying to create a Soviet-style propaganda machinery.
And since Trump reacts exactly the same way when confronted with real or fake accusations, none of his protests are believable.

Since we already have the Access Hollywood tapes (and some softporn) of him, Trump has exactly the opposite of the benefit of the doubt.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
This will only backfire if the anti-Trump camp is more self-concious than all the pro-Trump trolls who believe in Pizzagate.
Seriously, since no real excrement seems to stick to Trump, slinging some fake poo isn't much of an issue IMO. Trump&co are the last persons who are in a moral position to complain about fake allegations.
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He's made of poo, he just absorbs it and grows larger.
 
Stacko said:
Anderson Cooper has the patience of Job.

It was:

Conway: You reported this
Cooper: No we didn't
Conway: Many people feel you did
Cooper: Here's what we said
Conway: Fake news. Witch hunt.

Pure gaslighting from Conway.
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I suspect Cooper savors every moment of those sorts of exchanges.

Cooper vs. Conway is a pretty uneven match-up, not least because he doesn't let her get to him. He just lets her keep digging.

And now she's on record supporting the withholding of the details of classified reports from the general public.

It'll be fun to watch her squirm when the topic of letting everyone see the complete details of the investigation into Russia's election influencing efforts come up.
 
The "kompromat" memo is total garbage. It tried to do too much without having anything to back it up. But I dont' think it was supposed to be believed by the MSM, just circulated by someone credible at a fragile point in the campaign. They only needed one for the media to all jump in. As far as I can see, MotherJones reported it, but would not publish the memo.

Here's how I think it (generally) happened:

Sept. 23- Weiner being investigated by FBI for yet another sexting offense.
Oct. 15 to 25 - Trump is seriously lagging. Will he accept results of his loss?
Oct. 17 - FBI warrant for weiner emails, reports that Huma may be included
Oct. 20 - "Kompromat" document upload date on documentcloud
Oct. 29 - Comey writes letter to Congress essentially reopening the Clinton email investigation. Clinton take a hit in polls, loses big lead. (but still leads)
Oct. 30-31 - "Kompromat" memo shopped around to various media outlets.
Oct. 31 - MotherJones reports on the memo but does not publish full text
Dec. 9 - McCain (who doesnt have someone do a quick google search?) finally gets this report and hands it to FBI to investigate.
Jan. 2017: Summary of the contents of the memo shared with Trump in a briefing. Media report on it.

I think it is clear what the report was supposed to do back in late October with no insight into how long the fbi would take with Weiners emails.
I'm sure the FBI had the memo back then, but they get a lot of these conspiracy reports. This particular one is lacking in credible elements.
The fact that McCain wanted it looked at, even after the election, likely pushed them to share it with Trump. This is the same thing they would have done with Obama and the "birther" claims. The President needs to know what is out there. It doesnt mean it is credible, or vetted, or even plausible.

And in a twist, the sharing of a fictional report in an intelligence briefing to apprise the President of these reports circulating up to the Senate, was precisely the sort of thing the media needed to actually report on it, in full! So juicy!

So, now we need to know who paid for it and shopped it around back in October?
It doesnt need to be either of the campaigns - and likely isn't. There are thousands of other motivated parties who could have done it.
 
Stacko said:
If I'm reading the Schengen Agreement correctly, they don't mark the passport for travel from member states.
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It's also possible to have 2 U.S. passports at a time

You keep your Israel stamps in a different passport, or request that they stamp it on an ordinary sheet of paper, so that you are able to travel to Arab/Muslim countries as well, which affects a lot of Muslims and IMO is a very childish way for certain Middle East countries to behave.
 
There was question of what constitutes treason. Vox had a piece on that today. It pretty much needs to be a state of war. The rosenbergs were not pursued with treason at the height of the cold war.
 
Something made Trump finally acknowledge Russian hacking. I don't have time to research it right now, so maybe this question has been asked. What motive does he have for suddenly admitting Russian meddling?

I also don't know how far anyone has gotten in the "golden showers" issue. Is it correct that this has been captured on video?

It sounds so bizarre, and difficult to picture - where did the prostitutes pee? On the bed? On each other? On a tarp? Did Donald possibly agree in advance to replace the bed/carpet as needed?

Inquiring minds want to know!!
 
Minoosh said:
Something made Trump finally acknowledge Russian hacking. I don't have time to research it right now, so maybe this question has been asked. What motive does he have for suddenly admitting Russian meddling?

I also don't know how far anyone has gotten in the "golden showers" issue. Is it correct that this has been captured on video?

It sounds so bizarre, and difficult to picture - where did the prostitutes pee? On the bed? On each other? On a tarp? Did Donald possibly agree in advance to replace the bed/carpet as needed?

Inquiring minds want to know!!
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The reason for Trump admitting anything is that he's forgotten what he's lied about. It's hard work keeping them all straight. That's what he pays Kellyanne Conway for.
 
timhau said:
Do they stamp entry dates on passports like the US and Canada do? I visited the UK in October, and even though I needed a passport to get in, there's no record on the passport itself of my visit.
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I can confirm the US and Canada do not stamp passports when traveling between the two countries. That being said, they will let kids stamp their own passports as a sort of souvenir.

A stamp on a passport, or lack thereof, proves exactly squat in some situations.
 
BobTheCoward said:
There was question of what constitutes treason. Vox had a piece on that today. It pretty much needs to be a state of war. The rosenbergs were not pursued with treason at the height of the cold war.
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I think the Logan Act would apply.

Although that's a pointless distinction to make considering how often it is used...
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Distracted1,

given that any opposing view (i.e. the MSM) already has zero credibility with the Trump crowd, what would be the point?
No, if this was a false flag it backfired, since no matter what we find out, Trump will from now on always be envisioned as the guy who paid for 2 hookers in a Moscow Hotel to pee on a bed. Facts are irrelevant if you managed to hook such an image in people's minds.

None of this will work for Trump: the more he pushes for harder control of the media, the more he will be accused of trying to create a Soviet-style propaganda machinery.
And since Trump reacts exactly the same way when confronted with real or fake accusations, none of his protests are believable.

Since we already have the Access Hollywood tapes (and some softporn) of him, Trump has exactly the opposite of the benefit of the doubt.
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The Trump camp has long known they have little to fear from their supporters (remember the " shooting someone in the middle of Fifth Ave. comment ) they are not engaged in any attempt to spin things to their supporters- they know they don't need to.

I am thinking more along the lines of those who are trying to accept a Trump presidency in good faith. By releasing something that is salacious enough to shoot to the top of the headlines- yet fairly easy to cast doubt upon, they can portray an image of themselves as a regime constantly under fire from ridiculous and false allegations ( as ironic as that may be) creating doubt about the credibility of any accusation brought against them.

Trumps team played the media throughout the last year to amazing results, I think it would be in line with their record to use them again against themselves in this way.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Distracted1,

given that any opposing view (i.e. the MSM) already has zero credibility with the Trump crowd, what would be the point?
No, if this was a false flag it backfired, since no matter what we find out, Trump will from now on always be envisioned as the guy who paid for 2 hookers in a Moscow Hotel to pee on a bed. Facts are irrelevant if you managed to hook such an image in people's minds.

None of this will work for Trump: the more he pushes for harder control of the media, the more he will be accused of trying to create a Soviet-style propaganda machinery.
And since Trump reacts exactly the same way when confronted with real or fake accusations, none of his protests are believable.

Since we already have the Access Hollywood tapes (and some softporn) of him, Trump has exactly the opposite of the benefit of the doubt.
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While I don't think ignoring it is the correct path, I also don't believe pushing it regardless of veracity is any better.

These allegations have not been verified.
 
Upchurch said:
I can confirm the US and Canada do not stamp passports when traveling between the two countries. That being said, they will let kids stamp their own passports as a sort of souvenir.

A stamp on a passport, or lack thereof, proves exactly squat in some situations.
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My passport has 8 stamps from Canada.
 
tyr_13 said:
While I don't think ignoring it is the correct path, I also don't believe pushing it regardless of veracity is any better.

These allegations have not been verified.
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And the more they are pushed without verification, the less authentic will all other claims that paint Trump in a negative light seem.

I think it is a strategy. Trumps team knows well enough that such an allegation is too juicy to be ignored by the media (they will make certain of that). This forces the media into making itself seem extremely biased whenever it reports on an allegation against Trump.
 
Distracted1 said:
And the more they are pushed without verification, the less authentic will all other claims that paint Trump in a negative light seem.

I think it is a strategy. Trumps team knows well enough that such an allegation is too juicy to be ignored by the media (they will make certain of that). This forces the media into making itself seem extremely biased whenever it reports on an allegation against Trump.
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Reminds me of when Trump's followers accused Hillary of being a Lesbian, of having Parkinson's Disease, etc.
 
tyr_13 said:
While I don't think ignoring it is the correct path, I also don't believe pushing it regardless of veracity is any better.

These allegations have not been verified.
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Right! Best not to hang one's hat on this stuff. Just wait and see.
 
Hercules56 said:
Reminds me of when Trump's followers accused Hillary of being a Lesbian, of having Parkinson's Disease, etc.
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Isn't she dead by now? I remember her health being a very big issue just a few months ago. Probably keeled right over when she learned about her loss, and was replaced by a double for the concession speech.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Would you believe me if I told you that my Russian sources told me that Teh Donald has bought a nice piece of real estate in Siberia from Putin where he plans to create some amazing, yuuge old fashioned labour camps?
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I think you're failing to account for the tokenist nature of cargo cult skepticism here. The basis for belief is whether the individual making the claim holds a (sub)culturally determined token of authority, which you do not but people like Clapper do. You would hence not be believed irrespective of the content of what you say, whereas people like Clapper are believed irrespective of the content of what he says.

If you want to be believed in cargo cult skepticist groups then you are required to perform a set of objectively meaningless rituals, which the (sub)culture of the specific group has assigned as a basis for providing someone with a token of authority.

You can clearly notice this ritualistic basis in the group's frowning upon empirical evidence as a basis for belief[1] as "anti-intellectual". In the specific group around here your best bet to be believed would be to perform the rituals which would lead you to acquire the token of American[2] "intelligence agent"[3] or "bipartisan"[4].

1. Such as JihadJane's helpful pointing out of Clapper's history of lying and perjury.

2. This needs no saying, Americans are by default ubermenschen, which is implicit in literally everything that passes around for skepticism around here. See for example the statements of the "intelligence community" consisting of just a bunch of American intelligence agencies.

3. As per Upchurch, phiwum, et al. The rituals you need to perform being the gestures and behaviours which eventually lead to you being provided with the relevant token by individuals which have been assigned a token which allows them to hand out tokens of "part of intelligence community".

4. As per phiwum, Delphic Oracle, et al. The required rituals being to self-assign either one of the marginally different tokens of "Democrat" or "Republican" and then participating in a regularly held popularity ritual after which the population assigns you the token of "senator". The last step is to group together people such that the group ends up with the combined tokens of "Democrat senator" and "Republican senator" such that it can finally be assigned the token of "bipartisan" which then acquires the required authority.
 
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