Merged US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[Skeptic Ginger]

So we have this extensive report which I don't have time to read.

It may or may not have been tainted by Trumpian influence. We are talking badmouthing Cuba here, a frequent Trump interest.

It was certainly influenced by the news media's tendency to write sensationalist versions and using "We now know" for studies that actually remain inconclusive.

What I want to know is did they repeat the damage on animals, you know, test the hypothesis? Because that would go a long way toward resolving the somewhat incredible causation conclusion.

My personal bias is there is no there there and I admit that is influencing my POV here.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

A good take on this in Skeptic Magazine.

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_roo...s-probably-psychogenic-by-robert-bartholomew/

There certainly appear to be some "issues" with the report. Actual experts in the field were completely ignored.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

A good take on this in Skeptic Magazine.

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_roo...s-probably-psychogenic-by-robert-bartholomew/

There certainly appear to be some "issues" with the report. Actual experts in the field were completely ignored.

Once the State Department had accepted the sonic device explanation, U.S. diplomats who were being posted to Havana “were quietly warned they could face a mysterious threat that was causing American Foreign Service officers to fall ill, some with long-lasting symptoms.” Those diplomats who were about to be posted to Havana were even played audio recordings made by staff in Cuba, of the mysterious sounds that had accompanied their symptoms. These recordings were later identified as crickets and cicadas. These actions encouraged more “attacks” because new Embassy staff were on the lookout for sounds that resembled these very insects. As one Embassy worker told us: “If, prior to deploying to Havana, a government official were given this recording and told it was the hallmark of a debilitating attack, it is completely understandable that said official would arrive in Havana, hear the insects not long after, and fear the worst.”

And there you have it. Yet another conspiracy theory gains traction and gets an undeserved place in history due to ignorance, incompetence, paranoia and partisanship - wreaking lives and damaging international relations. We hold ourselves up as being the rational informed ones, then show that we are no smarter than the rest.

 

[dann]

What I want to know is did they repeat the damage on animals, you know, test the hypothesis? Because that would go a long way toward resolving the somewhat incredible causation conclusion.

Microwave weapons do exist, you can do actual damage with them, and they have been tested on more than animals:
Pentagon's crowd control weapon is too terrifying to use (Forbes, Sep. 17, 2020)
In fact, it was suggested that it be used against protesters in Washington when Trump was going to take his walk to his photo shoot with the Bible. (Link in the Forbes article.)
There are several problems, however.
1) The weapon is not exactly discrete. See photo in article.
2) The weapon in the photo is for use outdoors, not through walls.
3) Even the writers of the report are aware that not all of the symptoms can have been caused by any kind of 'microwave cannon', but unfortunately it doesn't make them dismiss the whole idea. Instead they fabulate about additional weapons.

I can recommend Robert Bartholomew's article in Skeptic Magazine, the one Gord_in_Toronto links to: Havana Syndrome Skepticism (Skeptic, Dec. 6, 2020)
It isn't very long.
However, I still wouldn't dismiss Alon Friedman's Canadian study, Havana Syndrome Among Canadian Diplomats: Brain Imaging Reveals Acquired Neurotoxicity, which Bartholomew seems to do.
I don't think that there is much reason to doubt that the majority of the affected 'diplomats' were victims of mass psychogenic illness, but the Canadian researchers have found damages that seem to be consistent with poisoning from the kind of insecticides that were used at the time as protection from Zika.

I haven't yet read the book, so I don't know Bartholomew's argument for (apparently) dismissing the idea that 'patient zero' and a couple of others suffered non-psychological damage (for lack of a better term), setting off the hysteria that would then affect the majority of victims. But some of the defects that were registered also appear to have been entirely unavoidable. People still go deaf for perfectly natural reasons, for instance.

By the way, the leading Cuban researcher on the case, neuroscientist Mitchell Joseph Valdés Sosa of the Cuba Neuroscience Center, actually thinks that the new report has made some progress in comparison to earlier US attempts:

“We don’t agree with the radio frequency pulse finding, of course,” Sosa said, “but this is the first time we have US experts acknowledging psychogenic effects could be important.”
Scientists Are Slamming A Report Saying Microwave Attacks Could Have Caused “Havana Syndrome” In US Diplomats (BuzzFeed News, Dec. 7, 2020)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Microwave weapons do exist, you can do actual damage with them, and they have been tested on more than animals:
Pentagon's crowd control weapon is too terrifying to use (Forbes, Sep. 17, 2020)
In fact, it was suggested that it be used against protesters in Washington when Trump was going to take his walk to his photo shoot with the Bible. (Link in the Forbes article.)
There are several problems, however.
1) The weapon is not exactly discrete. See photo in article.
2) The weapon in the photo is for use outdoors, not through walls.
3) Even the writers of the report are aware that not all of the symptoms can have been caused by any kind of 'microwave cannon', but unfortunately it doesn't make them dismiss the whole idea. Instead they fabulate about additional weapons.

I can recommend Robert Bartholomew's article in Skeptic Magazine, the one Gord_in_Toronto links to: Havana Syndrome Skepticism (Skeptic, Dec. 6, 2020)
It isn't very long.
However, I still wouldn't dismiss Alon Friedman's Canadian study, Havana Syndrome Among Canadian Diplomats: Brain Imaging Reveals Acquired Neurotoxicity, which Bartholomew seems to do.
I don't think that there is much reason to doubt that the majority of the affected 'diplomats' were victims of mass psychogenic illness, but the Canadian researchers have found damages that seem to be consistent with poisoning from the kind of insecticides that were used at the time as protection from Zika.

I haven't yet read the book, so I don't know Bartholomew's argument for (apparently) dismissing the idea that 'patient zero' and a couple of others suffered non-psychological damage (for lack of a better term), setting off the hysteria that would then affect the majority of victims. But some of the defects that were registered also appear to have been entirely unavoidable. People still go deaf for perfectly natural reasons, for instance.

By the way, the leading Cuban researcher on the case, neuroscientist Mitchell Joseph Valdés Sosa of the Cuba Neuroscience Center, actually thinks that the new report has made some progress in comparison to earlier US attempts:

Isn't that used to blast crowds from single source devices, like the way they use loud noises for crowd control.

They are not comparable.

I'm not buying into any of this without something more than researchers think maybe ...

I've seen this movie many times before with toxic mold (there are extremely rare exceptions), multiple chemical sensitivities, carpet fumes and the like. One thing that stands out, there is always something to be gained be it a lawsuit or workers' comp.

And another thing, there's always someone feeding the beast be it news media or co-workers.

Why aren't we seeing any buildings being torn down now for that toxic mold? (Not to be conflated with flood damage.)

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Isn't that used to blast crowds from single source devices, like the way they use loud noises for crowd control.

They are not comparable.

I'm not buying into any of this without something more than researchers think maybe ...
I've seen this movie many times before with toxic mold (there are extremely rare exceptions), multiple chemical sensitivities, carpet fumes and the like. One thing that stands out, there is always something to be gained be it a lawsuit or workers' comp.

And another thing, there's always someone feeding the beast be it news media or co-workers.

Why aren't we seeing any buildings being torn down now for that toxic mold? (Not to be conflated with flood damage.)

What additional research /data /information would you need to "buy into it"?

Buildings do get torn down because of Black Toxic Mould as a Goggle search will show you. The Canadian Construction Association manual: Mould guidelines for the Canadian construction industry is here: https://www.cca-acc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Mould-guidelines2018.pdf. It includes DECOMMISSIONING / DEMOLITION CONSIDERATIONS.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What additional research /data /information would you need to "buy into it"?

Buildings do get torn down because of Black Toxic Mould as a Goggle search will show you. The Canadian Construction Association manual: Mould guidelines for the Canadian construction industry is here: https://www.cca-acc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Mould-guidelines2018.pdf. It includes DECOMMISSIONING / DEMOLITION CONSIDERATIONS.

I am familiar with the aftermath of the public outcry about toxic mold. That's why I said flood damage aside.

But about 30 years ago here they were tearing down schools and a 911 call center all on claims that people thought the buildings made them sick. Those costly claims were not based on science, they were based on hysteria.

 

[Checkmite]

As it is often the case, the report itself, if you go into a little more detail, is not as sensationalist as the sensationalist preface to it

Imagine that. Utterly shocking.

 

[Checkmite]

So we have this extensive report which I don't have time to read.

It may or may not have been tainted by Trumpian influence. We are talking badmouthing Cuba here, a frequent Trump interest.

It wasn't. The NAS is an independent, non-governmental body, no member of which was installed, nominated, or appointed by Trump or anyone within his administration. As with the election, it is only some individuals' unhappiness with the conclusion that has led them to insinuate "fraud".

 

[dann]

What additional research /data /information would you need to "buy into it"?

Buildings do get torn down because of Black Toxic Mould as a Goggle search will show you. The Canadian Construction Association manual: Mould guidelines for the Canadian construction industry is here: https://www.cca-acc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Mould-guidelines2018.pdf. It includes DECOMMISSIONING / DEMOLITION CONSIDERATIONS.

Sick building syndrome has appeared in this thread a couple of times. (And Wikipedia's article about Sick building syndrome refers to the article about Havana Syndrome in its list of See also links.)

Yes, buildings get torn down all the time because of mold, but it is usually because mold affects the building rather than its inhabitants. Mold is also a symptom that the building may be too damp, which in itself is not healthy for a variety of reasons:
Mold 101: Effects on Human Health (National Capital Poison Control)
It's a long article, but you can scroll down to Take-Home Messages.

You should also notice that many of the links you get when you do a Google search are the ones that the Poison Control warns you against:

People who feel they are ill should seek medical care to establish a diagnosis and course of treatment, rather than relying on self-appointed "experts" who advertise unfounded "cures" on the internet.

 

[dann]

It wasn't. The NAS is an independent, non-governmental body, no member of which was installed, nominated, or appointed by Trump or anyone within his administration. As with the election, it is only some individuals' unhappiness with the conclusion that has led them to insinuate "fraud".

I suppose this is the reason why you seem to find it unnecessary to comment on the quotations form the report in post 726?

 

[dann]

Isn't that used to blast crowds from single source devices, like the way they use loud noises for crowd control.

They are not comparable.

I'm not buying into any of this without something more than researchers think maybe ...

This article is from before the NSA report:

Do these weapons really exist?
Dr Galliott said they "most certainly" do.
(…)
What does it look like?
They're known to be quite big.
Dr Galliott said the machines he has seen, and is aware of, are quite large because of the energy required to operate them.
He said it needs a good power outlet or a facility for them to operate, or mounted on top of large vehicles which have separate energy sources like on Humvees or ships.
What's a microwave weapon and is the Havana Syndrome real? (ABC News, Oct. 22, 2020)

So it is not so much that microwave weapons don't exist or that they can't be used to harm people. It is a question of no such weapon being sighted or in some other way detected in Havana or Guangzhou by the U.S. authorities, who can be assumed to be on the lookout for all kinds of sinister rays at or near their embassies or consulates - in particular in countries that they consider to be enemy territory.
That the 'diplomats' are supposed to have been harmed by the alleged weapons indoors doesn't make it more likely that these alleged attacks actually occurred.

 

[dann]

The two articles mentioned above in BuzzFeed News and Skeptic Magazine have gone almost unnoticed by the mainstream media, but the Skeptic Magazine article was mentioned in the Readers' comments in the ArsTechnica article, and there is a link to BuzzFeed News in this article:

Frey discovered that following exposure to microwave radiation, humans can experience pressure on the head as well as hearing a "buzz, clicking, hiss or knocking" sound at certain frequencies.

Which all sounds very sci-fi. However, there are reasons to be skeptical about microwave weapons being the cause of Havana Syndrome. Extremely skeptical, in fact.
First, the report itself did not seek to prove that pulsed radio frequency energy was the cause of the strange symptoms, but instead ruled it as the most plausible of the explanations they have and suggestions that Russia may have developed these weapons during the Soviet era are highly speculative. More importantly, there is no evidence that such weapons do exist or could exist in a way that would cause the described effects to the embassy employees.

"Not a single person who has attempted to link the symptoms to microwave energy has ever described – based on known engineering and science – what this device what would look like, or how it would operate," DC Bureau Chief of Yahoo News points out on Twitter. "Because that's where the entire story falls apart."
Report Claims Mysterious "Havana Syndrome" Was Most Likely The Result Of Microwave Weapons (IFLScience, Dec. 9, 2020)

 

[dann]

It wasn't. The NAS is an independent, non-governmental body, no member of which was installed, nominated, or appointed by Trump or anyone within his administration. As with the election, it is only some individuals' unhappiness with the conclusion that has led them to insinuate "fraud".

You have said nothing about the quotations from the NAS report. Did you at least take a look at the article that Gord_in_Toronto linked to?

There is also a concern that those overseeing the panel may have had motives that were driven more by politics than science. For instance, the former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists told me that he was invited to join the panel, only to be dropped. The reason: a radio interview he gave in which he espoused the likelihood that Havana Syndrome was psychogenic. This suggests the possibility of a bias against a psychological explanation. This is not only more likely and is grounded in known science, it is by far the more embarrassing explanation for the physicians at the State Department who, early in the outbreak, may have mistaken the sounds of crickets and cicadas for an attack by a hostile foreign power. Curiously, it is the State Department who commissioned the study. Coincidence? While this is speculation, what is not conjecture is the glaring failure of the panel to evaluate evidence that was laying in plain sight.
Havana Syndrome Skepticism (Skeptic Magazine, Dec. , 2020)

 

[dann]

One from Ireland:

The American study, which was commissioned by the US State Department and published on December 6, gave no scientific evidence to prove the existence of the radio frequency waves claimed to have caused the illnesses, Velazquez said.
"Cuba's Academy of Sciences disagrees with the final conclusion regarding the causes of the ailments," the Cuban academy said in its statement, which was read to reporters by Velazquez.
Velazquez complained that due to the lack of communication between the scientists of the two countries, neither the American nor the Cuban side had a clear picture of what had happened to the staff at the US embassy.
"Investigation about these health ailments has suffered from a lack of fluid communication between US and Cuban scientists," he said.
Cuba Rejects US Claim of Microwave Energy Attacks (FARSnews.ir, Dec. 16, 2020)

Three from Cuba - google translated:

La Academia de Ciencias de Cuba refutó este martes un informe de las Academias Nacionales de Ciencias, Ingeniería y Medicina de Estados Unidos, que relaciona a microondas de alta potencia con los supuestos incidentes de salud sufridos por diplomáticos estadounidenses y sus familiares en La Habana
Cuba rechaza politización de supuestos incidentes de salud de diplomáticos de EE.UU. (Granma.cu, Dec. 16, 2020)

On Tuesday, the Cuban Academy of Sciences refuted a report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine of the United States, which links high-power microwaves with alleged health incidents suffered by American diplomats and their families in Havana
Cuba rejects politicization of alleged health incidents of US diplomats

Otra vez el sainete sónico (Granma.cu, Dec. 16, 2020)
Once again, the sonic comedy

El informe no proporciona evidencias científicas de que existieran ondas de radiofrecuencia de gran intensidad en el área donde se ubicaron los diplomáticos (y de hecho, investigaciones ambientales realizadas en Cuba han descartado esta hipótesis). La falta de evidencias suficientes fue considerada en el reporte como motivo para dudar fuertemente de una intoxicación por pesticidas, un origen infeccioso o un desencadenante psicológico como causa de los síntomas; sin embargo, no se aplicó la misma lógica a la hipótesis de microondas (para la cual hay todavía menos evidencias).
(...)
Un tema importante abordado por el reporte es la enorme heterogeneidad de los síntomas dentro y entre las cohortes evaluadas en diferentes sitios. Esto hace que la propuesta de un síndrome novedoso homogéneo, provocado por una única causa, sea insostenible y muy improbable. También es relevante que el Comité Permanente reconoce que los trastornos neurológicos funcionales y los factores psicógenos podrían haber jugado un papel importante en exacerbar y propagar en el tiempo los síntomas experimentados por los diplomáticos.
Los Institutos Nacionales de Salud identificaron el mareo persistente postural-perceptivo, un trastorno neurológico funcional, en aproximadamente una cuarta parte de los diplomáticos que examinaron. Esta es la primera vez que un organismo científico estadounidense considera tal posibilidad, la que se ha postulado de manera convincente en la literatura científica como un factor contribuyente (y en algunos casos como causal) a estos incidentes de salud.
Supuestos «atáques sónicos»: Academia de Ciencias de Cuba discrepa sobre conclusión de academia estadounidense (Granma.cu, Dec. 15, 2020)

The report does not provide scientific evidence that high-intensity radio frequency waves existed in the area where the diplomats were located (and in fact, environmental investigations carried out in Cuba have ruled out this hypothesis). The lack of sufficient evidence was considered in the report as a reason to strongly doubt a pesticide poisoning, an infectious origin or a psychological trigger as the cause of the symptoms; however, the same logic was not applied to the microwave hypothesis (for which there is even less evidence).
(...)
An important issue addressed by the report is the enormous heterogeneity of symptoms within and between the cohorts evaluated at different sites. This makes the proposal for a homogeneous novel syndrome, caused by a single cause, unsustainable and highly unlikely. It is also relevant that the Standing Committee recognizes that functional neurological disorders and psychogenic factors could have played an important role in exacerbating and spreading over time the symptoms experienced by diplomats.
The National Institutes of Health identified persistent postural-perceptual dizziness, a functional neurological disorder, in about a quarter of the diplomats they examined. This is the first time that an American scientific body has considered such a possibility, which has been convincingly posited in the scientific literature as a contributing (and in some cases causal) factor to these health incidents.
Alleged "sonic attacks": Cuban Academy of Sciences disagrees on conclusion of US academy

This article is much longer than the two others - and much longer than the few excerpts above.
I find it particularly interesting that Cuban and Canadian researchers are still cooperation on a project investigating the pesticide hypothesis:

The ailments reported by diplomats and their families should be considered and treated as a health problem, not as a political issue. The collaboration bears fruit, as evidenced by Cuban and Canadian scientists studying similar health incidents, who have established a productive discussion, organized joint workshops, and are currently developing a collaborative research project to assess people exposed to pesticides in La Havana.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Backs up what I think.

Thanks.

 

[dann]

It is clear that the invention of the 'Havana Syndrome' was meant as a justification for policies like this:

US officials told the Times that the proposal to re-designate Cuba to the terrorism list stemmed from the State Department's Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs -- as opposed to its Counterterrorism Bureau, which would normally be heavily involved in such a move. Former Obama foreign policy adviser Ben Rhodes told the Times that the divergence from standard planning protocol "is a sign that they know they can't get Cuba on the list on the merits."
New York Times: Pompeo to consider designating Cuba a terrorism sponsor (CNN, Dec. 30, 2020)

 

[dann]

New podcast (16 min.) from Brian Dunning - includes transcript:

It bears repeating that intense pain from heat bears no similarity to any of the symptoms reported by the embassy workers in Havana. A government report published in 2020, An Assessment of Illness in U.S. Government Employees and Their Families at Overseas Embassies, cited the microwave auditory effect as being consistent with some of the symptoms. But this is a poor match; the only similarity is that some people reported hearing sounds, but completely unrelated types of sounds. Much of the rest of the paper's section on "Plausible Mechanisms" is highly speculative, and indeed its summary of an imaginary microwave weapon includes the blatantly false assertion that "known RF effects" include "dizziness, headache, fatigue, nausea, anxiety, cognitive deficits, and memory loss." No. Radio is all around us, and there is no evidence that it causes any of these things.

Unfortunately, the reporters who trumpeted "microwave weapon" as having been identified as the cause of Havana Syndrome ignored that it was only one of five possible causes discussed in the paper — the last of which was "Psychological and social factors", the only one that checks all the boxes, and the one broadly agreed upon as the true explanation.
Havana Syndrome, Microwaves, and Hearing RF (Skeptoid Podcast #761, Jan. 5, 2021)

 

[dann]

What the 'health attacks' were supposed to justify all along:

The decision is a part of a blitz of 11th-hour moves by the Trump administration to push through hard-line policies championed by influential domestic political constituencies, despite the complications they will create for State Department lawyers, humanitarian interests abroad and the incoming Biden administration.
“This blatantly politicized designation makes a mockery of what had been a credible, objective measure of a foreign government’s active support for terrorism,” said Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.). “Nothing remotely like that exists here. In fact, domestic terrorism in the United States poses a far greater threat to Americans than Cuba does.”
(...)
During the pandemic, Cuba’s relationship with the Trump administration has deteriorated ever further. Cuba’s deployment of its medical brigades to a host of nations facing shortages of medical staffers, including Italy, drew words (of) appreciation from host countries but stiff condemnations by Washington, which accused the Cubans of forcing doctors to work for next nothing.
On its way out the door, Trump administration names Cuba a state sponsor of terrorism (WP, Jan. 11, 2021)

 

[Andy_Ross]

Pompeo has just announced that the U.S. is re-designating Cuba as a state sponsor of terrorism.