US founded on "Christian Principles"?

The Talmud is not recited three times a day in synagogue.

I realize that, but apparently that prayer "thanks for not making me a gentile" is part of a daily Orthodox prayer regime (see a discussion here, for example, though the English translation is different there) that most of the sources I've seen suggest is of Talmudic origin.
 
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Is it safe to say that nobody wants to coment on this...

The Apostle's creed of the catholc church is very similar. Since other denominations have differing versions then I would ask if that means there are differing opinions within christianity on what christian principles are. As I said in another thead, the new testament can't even agree so how can anybody be expected to answer. now getting back to the topic of this thread, how can anyone say (with a straight face) that the founding men of this country were "wishy-washy" enough to found a country on undefinable principals.

And if that is the case why don't we just let the thread die since it is so far off topic.
 
Ok...lt's turn it around. What logic leads you to believe it isn't transitive? Now is your logic based on science or personal superstition?

I didn't say I believed it that the relationship referred to when a Trinitarian says "the Father is God" wasn't transitive. I said that one shouldn't simply assume that it was, because that could lead us into a strawman fallacy. In fact, though, I suspect that most Trinitarians would deny that by saying "the Father is God" they are referring to a transitive relationship, even if it's hard to get them to agree on exactly the kind of relationship it is.

By the way, logic isn't based either on science or superstition. Your comment there made no sense to me.
 
There's one explanation I heard from a Christian who seemed to have his head screwed on straight. The holy trinity should be viewed not as an exclusive designation, but as an ever-expanding family. The members of the trinity are not corners of a triangle as much as they are points on a circle. Jesus was claimed to be the Son of God, but don't forget that according to Christianity, all who live are God's sons and daughters. This would make us more like the brothers and sisters of Christ, which does seem more consistent with his original message than the exalted position he is given in mainstream dogma. If you consider God to be a principle of encompassing love (yes I'm aware of the contradiction with this, but bear with me) rather than a person or individual, then it's certainly possible for someone like Jesus to embody and live out that principle.

Mind you this explanation requires that literal interpretations be dismantled and abandoned, but since when was that ever a bad thing? I don't believe in it myself, of course, although it sounds better than just accepting something without affording it a moment's thought or the slightest understanding. I would also point out that the word "trinity" is not found anywhere in the bible, and was a concept that was invented centuries after Jesus was safely dead.
 
Your comment there made no sense to me.
That's ok, Your answers in this thread (all of them) make not a bit of sense...and BTW, I suggest you take your holier than thou attitude and store it otherwise NEVER bother replying to me.
 
Back when I was a theist, I had the rather interesting experience of taking a religion class taught by an atheist Catholic priest (he became an atheist after taking vows and claimed he felt he had to follow through on them because having lost faith, all he had left was his word--and yes he did drink heavily). I asked this guy about the whole trinity thing, and his explanation was something like:

Replace the word "person" with "aspect". The trinity represents 3 different aspects of the totality of God, not 3 different people. God the Father is the aspect of God that provides, protects, judges and disciplines. God the Son is the aspect of god that is sort of a peer to man, right down to the dual nature of being both God and human--since we humans are actually part of God, but we are unable to experience this unity during our lives on Earth. God the Holy Spirit is the aspect of God that pervades creation and animates all life.

For what it's worth, this explanation seems to me to be at least internally self-consistent. But it also reminds me of the sort of arguments that paranoid schizophrenics make to explain their delusions. I have no idea how closely it matches official Catholic doctrine.

You might find that philosophy article I linked earlier to be of interest; it reviews a number of ways that different thinkers have proposed for figuring out what a triune God might really mean.

Here's just one:

The third and final solution to the problem of the Trinity that we want to explore invokes what might be called the ‘relative-sameness’ assumption. This is the assumption that things can be the same relative to one kind of thing, but distinct relative to another. If this assumption is true, then it is open to us to say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God but distinct Persons. Notice, however, that this is all we need to make sense of the Trinity. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God (and there are no other Gods), then there will be exactly one God; but if they are also distinct Persons (and there are only three of them), then there will be three Persons.

The main challenge for this solution is to show that the relative-sameness assumption is coherent. … In some of our own recent work, we have attempted to address this concern, arguing that reflection on statues and the lumps of matter that constitute them can help us to see how two things can be the same material object but otherwise different entities. …

Consider Rodin’s famous bronze statue, The Thinker. It is a single material object; but it can be truly described both as a statue (which is one kind of thing), and as a lump of bronze (which is another kind of thing). A little reflection, moreover, reveals that the statue is distinct from the lump of bronze. For example, if the statue were melted down, we would no longer have both a lump and a statue: the lump would remain (albeit in a different shape) but Rodin’s Thinker would no longer exist. This shows that the lump is something distinct from the statue, since one thing can exist apart from another only if they’re distinct. (A statue can’t exist apart from itself!)

It might seem strange to think that a statue is distinct from the lump that constitutes it. Wouldn’t that imply that there are two material objects in the same place at the same time? Surely we don’t want to say that! But then what exactly are we to say about this case? Notice that this isn’t just a matter of one thing appearing in two different ways, or being labeled as both a statue and a lump. Earlier we noted that ‘Superman’ and ‘Clark Kent’ are really just different labels for the same man. But our statue analogy isn’t like this. Superman can’t exist apart from Clark Kent. Where the one goes, the other goes too (at least in disguise). But the lump of bronze in our example apparently can exist apart from The Thinker. If that’s right, then, unlike Superman and Clark Kent, the statue and lump of bronze really are distinct things.

Philosophers have suggested various ways of making sense of this phenomenon. One way of doing so is to say that the statue and the lump are the same material object even though they are distinct relative to some other kind. (In ordinary English, we don’t have a suitable name for the kind of thing relative to which the statue and the lump are distinct; but Aristotle and Aquinas would have said that the statue and the lump are distinct form-matter compounds.) Now, it’s hard to accept the idea that two distinct things can be the same material object without some detailed explanation of what it would mean for this to occur. But suppose we add that all it means for one thing and another to be “the same material object” is just for them to share all of their matter in common. Such a claim seems plausible; and if it is right, then our problem is solved. The lump of bronze in our example is clearly distinct from The Thinker, since it can exist without The Thinker, but it also clearly shares all the same matter in common with The Thinker, and hence on this view is the same material object.

By analogy, then, suppose we say that all it means for one Person and another to be the same God is for them to do something analogous to sharing all of their matter in common (say, sharing the same divine nature). On this view, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God but different Persons in just the way a statue and its constitutive lump are the same material object but different form-matter compounds. Of course, God is not material; so this can only be an analogy.
 
delete triple post - how did that happen? It would have to be a post about the Trinity, no less!
 
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The Apostle's creed of the catholc church is very similar. Since other denominations have differing versions then I would ask if that means there are differing opinions within christianity on what christian principles are. As I said in another thead, the new testament can't even agree so how can anybody be expected to answer. now getting back to the topic of this thread, how can anyone say (with a straight face) that the founding men of this country were "wishy-washy" enough to found a country on undefinable principals.

To infer, from the existence of different credal expressions within Christianity, that the concept of "Christian principles" is unintelligible or unidentifiable seems a bit of a leap. At any rate, we certainly can "define" (within limits) some of the principles on which early American political thought was founded. It's not an impossible or hopeless task to consider the extent to which such principles may have been a legacy of Christianity.
 
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To infer, from the existence of different credal expressions within Christianity, that the concept of "Christian principles" is unintelligible or unidentifiable seems a bit of a leap. At any rate, we certainly can "define" (within limits) some of the principles on which early American political thought was founded. It's not an impossible or hopeless task to consider the extent to which such principles may have been a legacy of Christianity.
Ok...let me make this simple for you. In the new testament the mangod jesus says take what you have, sell it then follow me (paraphrased).

Paul, the Pharisee-convert-Roman Citizen said believe in the name of jesus.

Once again if the two could not agree in the defining text of christianity, how do you or anyone think they can define something better than the defining text? Now in that light, were the founding men of this country stupid enough to base this country on principles that are undefined? If not, don't claim this country is based on christian principals that christians can't even decide on. That is woo...
 
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Once again if the two could not agree in the defining text of christianity, how do you or anyone think they can define something better than the defining text? Now in that light, were the founding men of this country stupid enough to base this country on principles that are undefined? If not, don't claim this country is based on christian principals that christians can't even decide on. That is woo...

There are fundamentals that, in general, all Christians agree are universal to the term "Christian". ceo has pointed out a number of these, and referenced their origins from Constitution through Founding Father through other sources of inspiration. That doesn't make the founding of the United States a fundamentally Christian effort. But the concept of "Christian Principles" are certainly embedded.
 
There are fundamentals that, in general, all Christians agree are universal to the term "Christian". ceo has pointed out a number of these, and referenced their origins from Constitution through Founding Father through other sources of inspiration. That doesn't make the founding of the United States a fundamentally Christian effort. But the concept of "Christian Principles" are certainly embedded.
Ok but if the defining text of christianity couldn't agree on basic principals who is the "uberman" that was able to decipher the internal contradiction?
 
I realize that, but apparently that prayer "thanks for not making me a gentile" is part of a daily Orthodox prayer regime (see a discussion here, for example, though the English translation is different there) that most of the sources I've seen suggest is of Talmudic origin.


So, it's exactly the same, only different?

The translation you've pointed to says "Thanks to the God who did not make me another nationality."

To me, that's like saying "Thank goodness I was born here, rather than in war-torn Sudan" or "rather than in dictator-ship Iraq" or "rather than in Communist Russia".

I see it more of a thanks for what we have, rather than a bust on everyone else
 
Having trouble with a triune God? Can't wrap your head around 3-in-one? It's all part of the holy mystery, and who are you to question GOD (cubed)???

Yes!!! I recognize that! Whenever anyone in RCC authority is asked to explain the trinity, the final answer (after dodging left, right, and low) is that it is a mystery, and that if you don't understand it then you are just like the rest of people, and no further answer is possible or needed. So shut up. In fact, if you try to explain it (as some here have earlier in this thread) then you fall into one of the half-dozen or so heresies that plagued the church in its first 600 or so years of existance - Arianism (Christ is god but not man), Marcionism (two Gods in the universe), Originism (Jesus is divine, but subordinate to the Father), etc, etc (see http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/heresy/index.htm#_Toc502048261 for more!). So shut up, or else God/the Pope/the Bishop from downtown) will deal with you - pretty scary to a 6th grader in religion class, let me tell you.
 
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Ok but if the defining text of christianity couldn't agree on basic principals who is the "uberman" that was able to decipher the internal contradiction?

No uberman, from what I understand. Early Christian leaders, who used the Talmud as a starting point, the cult of Jesus stories/myth as further impetus (probably some cult of Mithras and other fun mythos for spice), and then whatever "books" they felt forwarded their agenda by whatever "inspired" wirters. The definition of Christian Principals was further refined over the centuries through various individuals, though most of the fundamentals seem pretty consistent.
 
What are christian principles?

It's my personal opinion that the "christian principles" that matter to conservatives are:

- respect for tradition; what worked in the past works well, and change is to be avoided.
- respect for their religion, whatever that is; others are optional, though you don't want to alienate others unnecessarily;
- Patriarcialism, in which the sexes know and live their respective roles, as do the old vs the young, employers vs employees (and even, at one time, master vs slave);
- Christ as the center of my and your life, for those how have the time and intellect for that;
- Hard work and the reverence for value of money (the so-called protestant ethic);
- avoidance of excess, jollity, excessive decoration and frippery, and fun in general.
- sanctity of the whole population (blue laws, reverence for Sunday, rules against casual blasphemy);
- above all, religious training of the young, so that this meme perpetuates. This now includes non-training in science and humanism.

Now, none of these are part of whatever Christian Principles may have been may have been embedded in any of our founding documents (beyond a certain decency to others), but they are the things that those who state the opinion want to see established. So, it seems to me, we have two sets of principles here - those that some of the posters above see in the Constitution (which, in general, are still upheld), and those that they want to put in place, which are rather different.
 
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Yes!!! I recognize that! Whenever anyone in RCC authority is asked to explain the trinity, the final answer (after dodging left, right, and low) is that it is a mystery, and that if you don't understand it then you are just like the rest of people, and no further answer is possible or needed. So shut up. In fact, if you try to explain it (as some here have earlier in this thread) then you fall into one of the half-dozen or so heresies that plagued the church in its first 600 or so years of existance - Arianism (Christ is god but not man), Marcionism (two Gods in the universe), Originism (Jesus is divine, but subordinate to the Father), etc, etc (see http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/heresy/index.htm#_Toc502048261 for more!). So shut up, or else God/the Pope/the Bishop from downtown) will deal with you - pretty scary to a 6th grader in religion class, let me tell you.

I feel your pain. On this thread we just have claus telling us we must ACCEPT it. I thought I'd grow up a figure it all out when I was a kid, but I grew up and realized no one had a clue... they had just tried to stop making sense of it as I was forced to do. And I also realized that I thought all the adults in church were "feeling something" (god or whatever), but now I realize they were probably as bored as I was. Hmph.

 

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