US founded on "Christian Principles"?

Even if USA was founded on Christian beliefs why should it matter. I might be a naive european but is it really going to chance how people think now? Just because something was the law a few hundred years ago doesn't mean it should be now. USA was built on a very racist and sexist foundation, but I doubt many wants to legalise slaves and forbid woman to vote again just because it once was the law?
 
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DOC said:
One of the reasons for that is that they wanted to leave that authority up to the states.

And the "federal government" might not be founded on religion but the country of the United States:

1) has a national motto of "In God we Trust"

2) has a national Congress that begins every legislative session with a prayer.

3) has a Supreme Court that begins each session with its own exhortation, "God save the United States and this honorable Court."

4)has Congressional and military chaplains on its payroll.


And just for the record that Treaty with a Muslim nation eventually failed and we had to go to war with them.
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This is just evidence of Christians corrupting the government.
 
Regarding the responses to my last post in this thread, it seems I forgot to mention that Christianity has historically taken after both testaments, including many of the barbaric laws that are found in the OT. It's fair to say that the bible as a whole is the basis for Christianity, not just the NT alone.

There was one biblical incident I did want to point out though, as it's the only thing I've found that pertains to a democratic system of government. In Numbers 16, Korah and his followers challenged Moses because they wanted a more democratic system of leadership. But Moses wasn't so quick to give up his divinely appointed position as supreme dictator. What was Jehovah's response? He opened up the earth and had it swallow the dissenters alive! So much for democracy.

Also, consider what happened to Satan when he tried to install voting machines in Heaven. :p

I forgot to add this. The US is a "Christian nation" only in the same sense that it is a "white nation." Appeals to Christian authority, or claims of Christian supremacy, make about as much sense as appealing to white authority, or claiming white supremacy. It was the most popular religion, and there was simply no one else to do the job of building our nation.

One of the points I was trying to make earlier was that, for example, the US was founded by people who owned slaves. Does that mean that slavery is right? The US was formed by way of conquest in the name of Manifest Destiny. Does that make Manifest Destiny a worthy cause?
 
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skeptigirl said:
I guess we are just arguing relative terms then, Piggy. I don't mean we have no information. I do take issue with the level of certainty you expressed in your post.
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Level of certainty about what? It seemed to me that the only things I was expressing certainty about were on pretty solid ground, e.g. modern and ancient notions of God are very different, early ancient Hebrews were henotheistic, Biblical covenants (and others from that time and place) were formulaic, Genesis and Exodus were redacted from multiple sources and preserved their contradictions, etc.

Then again, I've been known to get overzealous before, so perhaps I'm not seeing where I've overstated my case.

Perhaps, also, I over-reacted to your use of the phrase "pure speculation" which, to me, clearly implied that we had nothing but speculation. Thanks for the clarification.

'Sa'right then.
 
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~enigma~ said:
Yes we have to go through this. When you think you have the ONLY true knowledge then I'm sorry to inform you that you are just as much of a religious zealot and incorrigible oaf as the christians tend to be.
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You're just making stuff up now. There's no way that any cogent reading of my posts could lead to the conclusion that I believe I have the only true knowledge about anything.

When you start being rational we'll talk.
 
~enigma~ said:
So all the bs about Yahweh creating the universe was just that? So what your telling me is that your a scholar in bs
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You have to keep in mind that these texts include bits and pieces of traditions that span a lot of time, and which often contradict each other, and during this time El worship was supplanted by the YHWH cult.

In some cases, the "abominations" being decried by the priests were, in fact, remnants of the old religion -- the same religion and the same god which are promoted and praised in other parts of the Bible.

It took efforts on the part of the redactors to make it appear as though all of this fit neatly together under a Yahwistic framework, but in reality there's a lot of shoe-horning going on.

And yes, in fact I think you could say that I am indeed a scholar in BS. I think BS is worth studying, given how much of it there is in our lives. If literature, religion, scripture, and fraud (which I study professionally now) are BS, then I have to plead guilty.

I've spent my life studying language and how our brains process it, especially how language is used to persuade, sometimes by lying.
 
Bindvad said:
Even if USA was founded on Christian beliefs why should it matter. I might be a naive european but is it really going to chance how people think now? Just because something was the law a few hundred years ago doesn't mean it should be now. USA was built on a very racist and sexist foundation, but I doubt many wants to legalise slaves and forbid woman to vote again just because it once was the law?
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It matters a great deal b/c -- in the context of the previous posts on this issue just above -- if the proponents of this view are correct that USA was founded on Xian princples and the notion of a secular state is a mere myth, is in fact "historical revisionism" as they claim, then the implications are profound.

Keep in mind that laws had to be changed at the highest level to end slavery and to give women the vote.

If, on the other hand, these results had been accomplished not by act of law, but by those in power rewriting history to make it seem as though it had always been true, then once that error is exposed, we're back to square one and it would require new laws to get us back to where we are now.

This is exactly the goal of Dominionists like DJK.

Read their stuff, listen to their radio shows... it takes your breath away.

They adamantly affirm, as DOC does, that separation of church and state is purely mythological, that it does not exist, is not Constitutional, and is a fiction deliberately perpetrated by the secular humanist liberals.

They tell their followers that the true history of the Christian foundation of our laws has been rewritten, the textbooks are lies, on and on.

I even read an article on CrossWalk.com last week which proclaimed, with utter sincerity, that the Bible "is responsible for Western Civilization".

And keep in mind that we now have a President who has packed his administration, and the Dept. of Justice in particular, with young zealous evangelicals, such as those graduated from Pat Robertson's diploma-mill law school.

He has also adopted the position that the legal opinions of his office of legal counsel hold the full weight of law. So if Congress passes a law he dislikes, or the courts make rulings he disagrees with, he has his lawyers write opinions proclaiming that the laws or decisions in question have illegally usurped his constitutional powers and therefore they do not apply to him or his administration and he directs the members of his administration to ignore them.

If these people work their way into positions of power and influence, they can do a lot of damage.
 
Great post Piggy. While the question might seem to be a purely academic one, it does have consequences in it effects how people who would impose their will/religious viewpoints on society at large. As I noted in an earlier post, there certainly are some Christian/Biblical principles that guided the Founders and Framers, but that's a far cry from the Jerusalem on the Patomac that dominionists and accomodationists are claiming existed - and are working actively to "restore".
 
Piggy said:
You're just making stuff up now. There's no way that any cogent reading of my posts could lead to the conclusion that I believe I have the only true knowledge about anything.

When you start being rational we'll talk.
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Whatever...you just put yourself on ignore. Happy?
 
Good Post Piggy.

While we've been sitting here thinking that religion is about as dangerous as your grandma, they have been making major headway into the heart of our administration pushing this notion of a secular conspiracy against Christians. We might think it's funny, but they believe it... they're full of fear, faith, and whatever else it is that inflict DOC--

Secularists cannot even organize themselves well much less plan this conspiracy to change legislation, but how can we communicate that to them when their faith makes them think we are the devil incarnate and they've been told that this faith is the key to salvation.

Can you imagine a lot of DOCs in power? It's like a cancer that's been spreading while we've been going on our merry way unaware that we are part of a powerful groups mass delusion.

It's not like Jews can say, "hey, I had nothing to do with killing your savior... I'm not even sure he existed... could you lay off the antisemitism"...

The faithful are not people you can reason with. See DOC for an example.
 
articulett said:
It's not like Jews can say, "hey, I had nothing to do with killing your savior... I'm not even sure he existed... could you lay off the antisemitism"...
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I have to ask, because I am not sure I understood you correctly.

Are you saying that Jews of today should feel responsible for Jews killing someone 2,000 years ago?
 
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articulett said:
I heard that many people think the "golden rule" (do unto others...) is a commandment. It's not, though, is it?
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Sure it is, from the Book of Phidias 16:18

And the Lord spoke on that day, saying "Thou shalt observe the golden rule, such that all thy windows shall be 1.618033 cubits by one cubit, more or less, and thy works of art shall incorporate it cunningly, your statues shall be full of it, and I will give unto you a series, so that you may remember it all of your days."
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Bindvad said:
Do you have a good place to start looking?
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I would say the best place right now is James Dobson and "Focus on the Family", who has now risen to the status of primary arbiter of mainstream Bible-believing fundamentalist evangelical kosher.

You'll find him the Web, on radio, and in bookstores.

From there, it's pretty easy to branch out into other like-minded organizations.

If you're in the States, especially the South (from GA to TX), try tuning to the AM band and hitting the scan button. You'll be blown away by what's out there, I promise you.
 
Thanks for the tips. I have only scratched the surface and it is already looking frightening.

-Bindvad
 
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