US founded on "Christian Principles"?

[godless dave]

It is a kind of "mythology buffet", where you get to pick and choose which bits you think should count, depending on how you feel on any given day.

Yep. That's why male homosexuality is still an abomination but eating shellfish isn't.

 

[Ladewig]

Wow, now that is pure, unadulterated idiocy at its finest. I have never seen that said before, do you have a ref? That seems fringe even on the fringe.

Yes, it is pretty fringe, but as quick googling turn up the unsupported assertion here in number six. and detailed support for each commandment here which cites state and colonial laws against idolatry, blasphemy, and so forth.

I would have sworn that there was a JREF thread about it, but I may be thinking of a different message board or a previous incarnation of this board. My search skills on this board are below average, so I'll let someone else look.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
ETA: DOC, did you want to cast a vote in favor of the claim that the Ten Commandments are the foundation of U.S. law?

 

[godless dave]

According to your reasoning

United States = United States government.

According to my thinking

United States = the citizens that make it up. The elected officials " the government" are not the totality of the United States of America. In theory this government is just a group of people whose job it is to serve its citizens.

And those citizens are free to practice any religion they want.

 

[bokonon]

According to your reasoning

United States = United States government.

According to my thinking

United States = the citizens that make it up. The elected officials " the government" are not the totality of the United States of America. In theory this government is just a group of people whose job it is to serve its citizens.

Oh, so when the thread is called "US founded on 'Christian principles'?" you understand that to mean the CITIZENS were founded.

I didn't even realize they were losted.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

And the "federal government" might not be founded on religion but the country of the United States:

1) has a national motto of "In God we Trust"

The de facto motto of the U.S. was "E Pluribus Unum," until 1956 when Red-Scare-era politicans decided we needed to make some ridiculous "statement' against the so-called "godless commies."

2) has a national Congress that begins every legislative session with a prayer.

3) has a Supreme Court that begins each session with its own exhortation, "God save the United States and this honorable Court."

4)has Congressional and military chaplains on its payroll.

And this proves... what? It only shows me that our politicians have to pander to a supersticions of knuckle-dragging, deluded, electorate; or that they're just as deluded and superstitious as their dimwitted constituents. Either way, it doesn't change what the people who wrote the Constitution intended.

 

[~enigma~]

I didn't "ASSUME" anything, so pipe down. I don't know what "point" you thought I was making, but I believe I made clear that I was noting a germane fact simply out of historical interest, not making an argument.

Sure you did. Your assumption was that the god they referred to was the barbaric child killer Yahweh. What reasons in particular do you have telling you it wasn't some other god?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

You forgot one more

5) Separation of Church and State -- not part of the Constitution

Then you're not looking hard enough:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

The first phrase means that government shall not have the power to force any religion or religious belief down the people's throat. The second phrase means that the people can choose to practice any religion they wish or none at all.

Ergo, the church shall not interfere with function of our government, and government shall not interfere with the lawful religious practices of the people. A figurative "wall of seperation" between church and state, so to speak.

 

[~enigma~]

Do we really have to go through this?

Yes we have to go through this. When you think you have the ONLY true knowledge then I'm sorry to inform you that you are just as much of a religious zealot and incorrigible oaf as the christians tend to be.

 

[joobz]

You forgot one more

5) Separation of Church and State -- not part of the Constitution

In other words, you have no proof and no reason to believe that this nation was built upon the christian religion and will therefore make a comment that has no bearing on the topic at hand.

DOC, what are the christian principles that you would have us believe that this nation is founded on?

 

[~enigma~]

The preamble was necessary to establish who the parties to the covenant were. As I said, it is formulaic and ancient.

It makes complete sense for the covenant to begin "I am Yahweh, your God" or "I am El, your God" because at that time the existence of other gods was accepted. This was an agreement between one particular god among many and one particular people among many.

Again you're bringing modern conceptions of God and the Bible to the table with you.

Keep in mind, Genesis and Exodus are not unitary texts. They weren't composed like a novel or essay or report or article. They were redacted from a slew of (often contradictory) source texts and oral traditions. So you can't look at a creation myth from Genesis and assume it has any bearing at all on a covenant text in Exodus.

Got it?

So all the bs about Yahweh creating the universe was just that? So what your telling me is that your a scholar in bs

 

[~enigma~]

According to your reasoning

United States = United States government.

According to my thinking

United States = the citizens that make it up. The elected officials " the government" are not the totality of the United States of America. In theory this government is just a group of people whose job it is to serve its citizens.

You'll notice the Treaty of Tripoli specifically says

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

And the new federal gov't of that time was weak. They didn't even have Income tax until around 1905. State's rights and State governments were much more powerful in relation to the federal gov't than they are now. That's one reason this weak federal government didn't even ban slavery. The powerful southern states would have never signed it... And those states at the time who had official religions would have never went along with a Federal religion anyway.

It wasn't until the government enacted Income tax around 1905 and the big money of the Industrial corportations came into play that the US Government had greater power over its citizens. This is exactly what Th. Jefferson didn't want. He wanted a government that was as small as possible.

So really when the Treaty of Tripoli says (to a Muslim nation it wanted to avoid war with) the U.S. government was not founded on Christianity it really didn't mean that much because the federal government at that time was actually pretty weak. It couldn't even keep its presidents and citizens from worshiping in the Capital building and Supreme Court Chambers -- but of course it didn't even want to at the time.

Thanks for clearing that up. Now I see no need in wasting my time with a woo. Enjoy your beliefs.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

As someone who argues vociferously against accomodationists and JerUSAlemists, I do want to point out that there are a lot of laws and governmental practices which were rooted in Christianity that came out of the founding period and many which lasted for (IMO) far too long afterwards. Blue laws, which generally are ignored with the exception of alcohol sales in some states came out of Christian tradition. Of course even in Texas, where I cannot purchase alcohol (beer and wine until 1am Sat. and after noon Sun.), there are 24 hour adult video stores where I can purchase pornography.

Most state Constitutions (again, like Texas f.ex.) which have not overturned their Supreme Being conditions for office have at least a "wink wink, nod nod" approach to applying Article VI through the 14th Amendment for some sort of religious belief. Even then, look at what Kennedy faced in 1960, what Romney, were it not for his talk radio vanguard faced today and all the rumors and innuendo about Obama being a stealth Muslim. No federal or state entity would dare ask what religion a candidate for employment was because of VI/14, but the Christian influence of the culture is still effecting our politics.

When it comes to the federal Constitution, it's clear that the testimony of two witnesses (see the section on treason) came from the Bible. Another influence from the Presbyterian founders can (it seems) be found in the choice of elders being able to hold elected offices of higher and higher influence (rep. v. sen. v. pres.).

The founders were well versed in the Bible, the Classics and Enlightenment thinkers like John Locke. That is why this nation was not "founded on the Bible" nor purely the product of the Enlightenment, but the best kernels of political and social thought selected from 2,500 years of human experiment. "WE THE PEOPLE", not God or the God chosen king, did ordain and establish that Constitution in 1789 and included two witnesses being required for a charge of treason, one man/one vote*, a body of elder statesmen being the filter for legislation, an elected head of state and government, plus things like public buildings having columns and statues to conceptual deities (justice, columbia, etc.) and the concept of universal rights of concience, expression and enfranchisement*.

* It would take until 1920 for the two asterisked points to be enacted, but they eventually were.

 

[Hokulele]

Where is the term "Separation of Church and State" in any Amendment to the Constitution.

Where are the words "God" and "Jesus" in any part of the Constitution, including the Amendments?

 

[~enigma~]

Where are the words "God" and "Jesus" in any part of the Constitution, including the Amendments?

The thing is the word god does appear but taken by itself, it means NOTHING. There is Yahweh the barbarian of the bible but then again there is Ganesh, Odin, Thor and a ton of others. How anyone can decide that the word god must refer to their biased beliefs is beyond any logic.

 

[Darat]

Just out of curiosity but what does it matter, beyond being of historic interest, whether the USA was founded on Christian principles or not?

 

[~enigma~]

Just out of curiosity but what does it matter, beyond being of historic interest, whether the USA was founded on Christian principles or not?

In the big scheme of things it doesn't but if you think we (meaning rational people) are supposed to lay down and let religious fantasy believers have an unopposed voice (even on this forum) you got to be kidding

 

[ceo_esq]

Just out of curiosity but what does it matter, beyond being of historic interest, whether the USA was founded on Christian principles or not?

I have frequently questioned this myself. I think the implications for current and future policy decisions are negligible.

 

[articulett]

It's a thing done by Christians to impose ever encroaching religiousness on the nation... such requiring school "moments of silence", making a national religious heritage week, continuing congressional prayers and faith based spending (with no accountability or regard to efficacy), and to promote the idea that Christians can pretend to be humble and persecuted against.

It's a story spawned in the minds of the religious right that is nourished as any faith is--with semantics, promises of glory, and threats. It makes a lot of sense to those taught that believing a certain way, despite evidence, leads to eternal salvation.

 

[Ladewig]

Just out of curiosity but what does it matter, beyond being of historic interest, whether the USA was founded on Christian principles or not?

It is important to people like DOC who believe that because we were once a Christian nation, all Supreme Court decisions that diminish our Godliness and our respect for Jesus should be overturned and steps should be take to ensure that no federal judge ever make those mistakes again (see Constitution Restoration Act).

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Just out of curiosity but what does it matter, beyond being of historic interest, whether the USA was founded on Christian principles or not?

Having once been a religious conservative, I'll tell you why it matters to them and why it should matter to atheists and secular-leaning people:

The whole "America is a Christian nation" meme is bit of ideological fiction designed to convince people that Christian beliefs and theology should be foundation of American society and law. According to DOC and his ilk, a society built on "Christian Principals" would never have legalized abortion, pornography, or sodomy; would never taken mandatory prayer out of public schools or allowed the teaching of evolution; would have religious tests for public office, and would never allow a open homosexual to be seen in public.

This belief system has another name: Dominionism.

In 2005, Clarkson enumerated the following characteristics shared by all forms of dominionism:[20]

1. Dominionists celebrate Christian nationalism, in that they believe that the United States once was, and should once again be, a Christian nation. In this way, they deny the Enlightenment roots of American democracy.
2. Dominionists promote religious supremacy, insofar as they generally do not respect the equality of other religions, or even other versions of Christianity.
3. Dominionists endorse theocratic visions, insofar as they believe that the Ten Commandments, or "biblical law," should be the foundation of American law, and that the U.S. Constitution should be seen as a vehicle for implementing Biblical principles.[20]
​

And looky who we have here!

Writers including Clarkson,[75] Hedges[25], Joan Bokaer,[76] Sarah Leslie of Discernment-Ministries Inc.,[77] and Bob Moser of Rolling Stone[78] have explicitly identified certain people and/or organizations as dominionist, including D. James Kennedy,[75][78] James Dobson,[25][77] Roy Moore,[78] and Paul Weyrich.[76] (Emphasis mine.)