US founded on "Christian Principles"?

...the "federal government" might not be founded on religion but the country of the United States:
blahblahblah

I'm sorry, what didn't you understand? Let me highlight what you apparently missed:

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

It states clearly that the United states, "In any sense" was NOT founded on the Christian religion. But you completely ignored that and said "well the federal government might not be founded on religion BUT THE UNITED STATES HOWEVER" as if the Treaty didn't just go into that.

And just for the record that Treaty with a Muslim nation eventually failed and we had to go to war with them.

OH IN THAT CASE let's just throw the treaty out, as it null and void because of that
 
And just for the record that Treaty with a Muslim nation eventually failed and we had to go to war with them.
The failure of the Treaty of Tripoli, which stated "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen" was not because the statement just cited was false. We went to war because Barbary pirates continued to plunder commercial vessels, in violation of the treaty.
 
I'm sorry, what didn't you understand? Let me highlight what you apparently missed:

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

It states clearly that the United states, "In any sense" was NOT founded on the Christian religion. But you completely ignored that and said "well the federal government might not be founded on religion BUT THE UNITED STATES HOWEVER" as if the Treaty didn't just go into that.


Unfortunately, the fact that the treaty said that doesn't mean an awful lot. I explain why here.
 
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That treaty states the truth. Our country purposefully did not mention god in the constitution and specifically said that there could be no religious test for office. The United States was founded as a secular country and it served as a role model in doing so. The first amendment forbids congress from making any laws respecting the establishment of religion. Moreover, we are beholden to treaties although this president doesn't seem to think so and is big on "signing statements" so that he can disregard such things willy nilly.
 
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Unfortunately, the fact that the treaty said that doesn't mean an awful lot. I explain why here.

I think your criticism is valid, ceo_esq, but DOC's standards for evidence apparently include evidence at this level (and lower!). That being the case, I think citing the ToT in responses to points that he has made is still justifiable.
 
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There was very lively debate on approximately this subject that took place in an old JREF thread which, sadly, was culled in one of the forum purges.

However, the kind folks over at SkepticReport have archived all or most of the thread content; you can find it here.

Not to sidetrack my own thread, but I found the points in the link interesting.

I didn't read quite all of it, but I did read the entire initial post with some care. I agree that some of the CL had definite roots in some of the Mosaic code, tracing it back through Roman law as you indicate. In fact, I think this is indisputable.

The influence is particularly strong in the CL criminal code though, and I am less convinced of its influence in Contract and Tort, especially in their modern incarnations. I am no Mosaic code scholar, but I don't see many of its echos in modern Tort law with its complex policy balancing nor in modern contracts code reflected in the UCC. (granted, that is only for goods)

Even in the criminal context, modern codes like the MPC seem to be less and less tethered to Mosaic criminal conceptions, and this is the clear trend in most states, although of course there are exceptions.

All of that is interesting history and one could make a decent argument that significant portions of the American CL tradition have roots in Mosaic code. But, my focus is more narrow.

When someone uses the phrase "United States is founded", that, to me, means the US Constitution and the framework of our federal system. If they mean "American common law system", it is easy enough to say that. And when someone says "Christian principles", I do not interpret that to mean "Mosaic code", I interpret that to mean specific principles that can be traced to supposed sayings of Jesus or at least early Christian tradition. (Of course, that is the problem, it is maddeningly difficult to define what "Christian principles" are limited to. Christians bring in Jewish tradition and codes whenever it suits their purposes, and abandon them at the earliest sign of inconvenience. But, that is probably a topic for another thread.)

If that is not what is meant, then the phrase, as used, is far too vague to have any definitive meaning. And, perhaps, this is the point. It is something that sounds good, appeals to the passions of the religious majority, but when cornered on specifics can be talked away in generalities.

In any case, thanks for the link, it has a lot of good points about the history of the CL tradition in America.
 
I have heard this mantra, or something similar, repeated many times in recent days: "The US is founded on Christian Principles"

Now, I have read the US Constitution many times. I have taken a Constitutional law course. I have even waded through some of "The common law". And I cannot for the life of me figure out what this phrase is supposed to mean.

As far as I can tell, there are no Christian principles in the US Constitution, with the possible exception of the endorsement of slavery.

I understand that the people making these statements really aren't even trying to do an analysis, its just something they think sounds good. But is there even the remotest shred of evidence behind this claim?
Read through the treaty of Tripoli from 1796 and you will have your evidence that the US is not christian in any sense of the word.
 
1) has a national motto of "In God we Trust"
Thor was a god, Baal was a god, Zeus was a god. You might have a point if it said In Yahweh the barbaric and jealous god we trust but that isn't what it says.

2) has a national Congress that begins every legislative session with a prayer.
And to whom is the prayer addressed? If it is to a nameless god...see what was written above.

3) has a Supreme Court that begins each session with its own exhortation, "God save the United States and this honorable Court."
Another reference to a nameless god. Allah is a god so maybe the USA was founded on Muslim principals....Allah Akbar :)
4)has Congressional and military chaplains on its payroll.
Point being?

And just for the record that Treaty with a Muslim nation eventually failed and we had to go to war with them.
So? Because another country broke a treaty how exactly does that mean whatever was written in it is wrong?
 
My favorite is fundamentalists saying that all of the Ten Commandments are incorporated into federal law.
 
Read through the treaty of Tripoli from 1796 and you will have your evidence that the US is not christian in any sense of the word.

True enough, but the phrase is more subtle. "Christian principles" is vague enough for some wiggle room, but even given that I still fail to see how it is applicable to the US Constitution.
 
My favorite is fundamentalists saying that all of the Ten Commandments are incorporated into federal law.

Yeah, well... I addressed that in post #3 on this thread... I was pretty sure it was case closed at that point, but I guess I was wrong? :confused:
 
My favorite is fundamentalists saying that all of the Ten Commandments are incorporated into federal law.

Wow, now that is pure, unadulterated idiocy at its finest. I have never seen that said before, do you have a ref? That seems fringe even on the fringe.
 
yes... now I remember... wasn't there a part in the constitution about not worshiping statues and keeping the sabbath day holy...( or was that a nightmare?)
 
yes... now I remember... wasn't there a part in the constitution about not worshiping statues and keeping the sabbath day holy...( or was that a nightmare?)
I never really understood why they are called the 10 commandments when the first commandment starts out with a simple sentence that says I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. What is the commandment in that? More importantly can someone tell me what federal law incoperates that???
 
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I never really understood why they are called the 10 commandments when the first commandment starts out with a simple sentence that says I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. What is the commandment in that?

Covenants in that time and place were rather formulaic. The bit about being the Lord your God is not one of the commandments. Consider it a kind of preamble.

Carry on.
 
1) has a national motto of "In God we Trust"

Surprisingly, no one has yet pointed out that this motto was adopted in 1956, and therefore is completely irrelevant to any discussion of founding principles.

It is more relevant to a discussion of the cold war.
 
I knew that. I alluded to it.

Aren't there two versions of the commandments? Either old and new testament or Catholic and Protestant versions?
 

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