US economy is too good

[shecky]

This is the fallacy of economism; the notion that the economy trumps all other considerations.

The economy does kinda trump all other considerations in all but the most repressive of governments. Legally or not.

Illegals are unskilled workers. A large fraction of Americans are simply not intelligent enough to do other than unskilled work. The net result is to lower of wages of American unskilled labor and increase the wealth of skilled labor. The disparity today is already too high.

Is this really a bad thing? And what would be the solution? To mandate higher wages?

Americans unintelligent enough to do other than unskilled labor are indeed in a bind regardless of illegal immigrants. Point is, why should I have to pay for substandard "unintellignt" American labor when I can have better labor, at possibly better prices, in the immigrant, even if illegal?

A country without borders is not a country.

So what?

10% or the population of Mexico now lives in the USA. Normally you would have to conquer a country for this to happen. They are not assimilating because there are so many illegals that is easy to just remain a Mexican. Also, Mexico is right next store to us, unlike Europe which is an ocean away.

Why is it a problem that 10% (or even 50%) of Mexico's population is in the US? US unemployment is low, so that percentage doesn't seem to have much negative impact. In fact, the US benefits from the increased productivity and markets created by immigrants.

As far as assimilating, you may be wrong. As with any immigrant group, Latinos lose the mother tounge the longer they stay in the US.

History shows that mult-cultural countries don't last.

The US has been multicultural for all it's existence. There have always been enclaves of various nationalities in cities and rural areas. Most seem to take a great deal of pride in their heritage, and yet manage to buy into the collective notion of America.

What do you think will happen during the next big recession when millions of Americans lose their jobs while millions of Mexicans still have jobs in the USA? Not very pretty.

No kidding. It's not pretty even when Americans aren't losing their jobs to Mexicans.

 

[shecky]

"tragedy of the commons" derives its name from a particular parable about the overuse of public grazing land in England, but refers to a general class of problems. Here's an overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

I was just curious about what resources are running thin because of immigration, legal or not. I'm not sure a case could be made. In the last 100 years, the population has grown, through native births, and legal and illegal immigration, it's survived an exodus of workers out of rural areas into cities, and a large influx of women in the workforce. Yet on the whole, prosperity seems to be higher than it's ever been, and higher than most anywhere on the planet.

 

[Ziggurat]

I was just curious about what resources are running thin because of immigration, legal or not.

Our capacity to absorb new immigrants who do not yet know, understand, or necessarily accept the way our society operates. That capacity is not infinite.

I'm not sure a case could be made. In the last 100 years, the population has grown, through native births, and legal and illegal immigration, it's survived an exodus of workers out of rural areas into cities, and a large influx of women in the workforce. Yet on the whole, prosperity seems to be higher than it's ever been, and higher than most anywhere on the planet.

Sure. We can support around 300 million people today better than we could support about 76 million people in 1900. But that doesn't mean that we could have supported 300 million people reasonably in 1900, or that the number of people who can be supported today is unlimited either. It can grow, certainly, and there's not really a clear or imminent ceiling to the number that can be supported eventually, but there IS a limit to the rate at which the number can grow without causing significant problems.

 

[Dorian Gray]

History shows that mult-cultural countries don't last.

LIES! This is untrue on its face. It's hard to think of a country that isn't multicultural right now.

Consider these US cities/regions:
New York
Los Angeles
Midwest
New Orleans
Florida
South
Appalachia
Northwest
New England

Each of those has its own culture right now. Congratulations! You've just said that the US won't last.

Now go back to the forming of the country. Dutch, French, Spanish, natives, British - that's a few different cultures right there. How did we make it? Survival was a fluke, I see... how about when immigrants came from Europe? Poland, Ireland, Italy? And in the west, Japan, China, SE Asia? Gosh, America sure is screwed, huh?

 

[Tony]

The economy does kinda trump all other considerations in all but the most repressive of governments. Legally or not.

That's a bold statement. Can you back it up? I'd say that democracy and freedom should trump the economy in a free society.

Is this really a bad thing?

What, the growing gap between the rich and the poor and the shrinking of the middle class? Why would that be a good thing?

And what would be the solution?

To enforce the laws have the effect of allowing Americans to maintain and increase their standard of living.

Point is, why should I have to pay for substandard "unintellignt" American labor when I can have better labor, at possibly better prices, in the immigrant, even if illegal?

Why should you be allowed to undermine labor laws and help turn the USA into a third world country?

So what?

You haven't thought this through much have you?

Why is it a problem that 10% (or even 50%) of Mexico's population is in the US?

I can foresee many problems, the worse of which being a full blow insurrection by an underclass (50 million strong) of foreign workers.

In fact, the US benefits from the increased productivity and markets created by immigrants.

Evidence? Have wages for the average citizen gone up, has buying power increased, has the standard of living for the average citizen gone up because of illegal immigrant labor?

 

[stocks]

LIES! This is untrue on its face. It's hard to think of a country that isn't multicultural right now.

Consider these US cities/regions:
New York
Los Angeles
Midwest
New Orleans
Florida
South
Appalachia
Northwest
New England

This is not what I mean by multicultural. Language is key.

Congratulations! You've just said that the US won't last.

Yes, this is my point. 40 years from now America will either be
one culture (with the melting pot in service), or we will split into
several different countries.
The next 40 years will be very different than the last 40 years.

Remember Steve McQueen in "The Sand Pebbles" The sailors had Chinese slaves to do there dirty work, but they bailed when hostilities began with China and the Chinese tortured one of them.

 

[AWPrime]

I was just curious about what resources are running thin because of immigration, legal or not.

The enviroment is already showings signs of damage (soil depletion, waterlevel drop) caused by the current population level.

Also its impossible/stupid to replace all the undereducated americans with illegals. For if such a large part of the population isn't kept happy, then the effects would be horrific.

I'm not sure a case could be made. In the last 100 years, the population has grown, through native births, and legal and illegal immigration, it's survived an exodus of workers out of rural areas into cities, and a large influx of women in the workforce. Yet on the whole, prosperity seems to be higher than it's ever been, and higher than most anywhere on the planet.

Actually the prosperity in the US was higher in the 50's. Poeple then had more money on the bank, were able to have a large family with one job.....