US Army to release kidnapped Australian.

rikzilla said:
I guess we'll have to wait till he turns up with a rocket launcher in Iraq, or perhaps with a dirty bomb in Australia. Of course I could be wrong....but thanks to the lawyers and pols we will get to find out.

And you believe this because????? Because you have been told to and you do as you are told. Certainly evidence is not one of your requirements.

That Howard was not keen to see this particular "citizen" repatriated is not really that surprising....That AUP and Fool want him walking their streets is interesting. Let me ask you guys this; If he ends up killing your wife or kid will the grief you feel cause you to re-think your political stand?

He is a lot like you ricky, GWB tells him to trust him....so he does.

As an American I feel rather ambivalent about this release. If he's really just a "guy kidnapped from a bus" in Pakistan then why waste so much time and resource on him? Perhaps they made a mistake...but if I was a betting man I'd say that there were likely several good reasons to think him a bad guy.

So the act of arresting him is evidence that arresting him was necessary....just out of curiosity, do you regard yourself as a logical critical thinker?



After all, in the "Green River Killer" case the police had a good lot of purely circumstantial evidence against Gary Ridgeway back in 1987...yet they had to wait till 2001 for solid DNA evidence to convict him. In that span of 14 years he took many more victims.

Thats clinched it, Habib is guilty because Ridgeway was....

An international terrorist is alot more dangerous than one serial killer. Letting Habib walk free will very likely cost lives.

why? Because you have been told what to believe and you do as you are told.

I do wonder how all you champions of rights for terrorists can look in a mirror or sleep at night. Already several lives have been lost to ex-Gitmo detainees who have returned to the jihad. Do those people somehow not count?

yep all us misguided people who believe in a presumption of innocence and a rule of law. I have not championed the cause of any terrorists, If you are refering to me you are a low form of liar......I have championed the cause of somebody who has not been charged with anything and has had no evidence produced against him....that doesn't stop liars like you from constantly refering to him as a terrorist...repeat it often enough? Is that the tactic?

If you were arrested rick...would you like a presumption of innocence? You are happy to deny it for other people.
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Skeptic said:
That's all very nice, "Fool", but your "outrage" at the fact that the US is releasing him without a trial is somewhat undermined by the fact that you would be just as "outraged" and incensed at the "evil USA" if it decided NOT to release him and to put him on trial for terrorism.

Nice try but, of course, I am not expressing outrage that the US has released him....I am expressing outrage that the US..after winking and telling me they have the goods on this guy, have now caved in to the inevitable fact that they have nothing to charge him with....get in the game "skeptic" I can't waste my time repeating the obvious to you. The outrage is about the years of imprisonment, not the release.

You're up to your usual "damned if it does, damned if it doesn't" double standard towards the US. If it puts someone on trial for terrorism, you shout your head off that it is "a show trial", that the "defendant's rights are not protected", that the guilty verdict is known in advance, etc., etc.

sigh...I have been calling for a trial...and stop fabricating quotes ...how many times have you got to be told.. I have not said any of the words you put in quotes and attribute to me...

But if it does NOT put someone on trial and releases them after detemining they are innocent, then this, naturally, merely shows that the US was being cruel to an innocent man for no reason whatever, apparently arresting him at random as an act of sheer imperialistic cruelty.

what other conclusion do you have in mind? The dog ate my evidence?

Did it occur to you that the US might have had reasons for arresting him?

yes I am genuinely interested....why did they arrest him? They won't say...will you help us out?


That there is something, shall we say, slightly suspicious with a devout Muslim Australian citizen showing up thousands of miles from home on the way to Afghanistan at the time bin Laden was calling on all believers to fight the American Infidel there? No, this does not prove he is guilty. But it hardly is illogical to reasonably suspect him of terrorist intentions.

let me see.....the following are suspicios activities in "skeptic" world.
1. being a muslim
2. Being Australian
3. being thousands of miles from home
I'll leave out the "on the way to afghanistan" because that is a figment of your imagination...


Obviously, the only "moral" thing the US should have done is to not arrest anybody at all for terrorism anywhere, no matter how suspiciously they act; or, if it does, to know in advance by psychic means that all the suspects it arrests are, in fact, guilty of terrorism.

but it would be nice to have some evidence?

Oh wait, THAT won't work, either: if all of them WERE found guilty, you'd be shouting your head off how this proves the trials were all "unfair show trials where the verdict is known in advance", etc. So, we're left with "don't do anything"--the only "moral" action the US could take about Al Quaeda.

there you go fabricating quotes again....

Otherwise, whatever it does, the US would have to face your wrath and moral approbation. (Shrug) Well, I think the US can live with that.

Obviously you have no problems with this....So I hope it happens to you. No doubt you would be squealing for presumption of innocence, production of evidence...rule of law. Funny thing is I would be calling for just treatment for you...because unlike you, I care about principles of Justice over and above bigotry and revenge.
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Mycroft said:
The Constitution of the United States grants rights to citizens of the United States, not enemy combatants captured by foreign governments in foreign lands.

Really, I wonder at the fuzzy logic that expects soldiers to act as policemen when they are not, and combatants to be treated as common criminals when they are not.

Our citizens have rights guaranteed by our constitution. Foreign nationals on our soil also have rights guaranteed by law, though in some cases they are different rights. People with dual Austrailian/Egyptian citizenship who are arrested by Pakistani soldiers in Pakistan are not protected by the United States constitution, nor should they be.
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So the USA had nothing to do with Habib's arrest, it was all done by Pakistanis in Pakistan for their reasons. No US constitutional issues arising. Fine, let's run with that for a sec.

How did Habib end up being incarcerated in Gitmo, a US prison camp, for three years, immediately following his arrest? With NO charges being laid by any country at all, including the USA, and least of all Pakistan? Tell me, does the USA provide prison facilities to Pakistan that they don't have? Or do they do it for cheaper or something? And why has Pakistan not even been mentioned since Habib's arrest? Didn't they want him back?

C'mon, Mycroft - don't insult our intelligence or your own. It's very simple: If Habib was really such a bad guy, why have they released him without charge?
 
The Fool said:
You're up to your usual "damned if it does, damned if it doesn't" double standard towards the US. If it puts someone on trial for terrorism, you shout your head off that it is "a show trial", that the "defendant's rights are not protected", that the guilty verdict is known in advance, etc., etc.

sigh...I have been calling for a trial...and stop fabricating quotes ...how many times have you got to be told.. I have not said any of the words you put in quotes and attribute to me...
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No fabrication of quotes here. From context, he is clearly quoting things you might say, not things you have said.
 
Originally posted by Zep So the USA had nothing to do with Habib's arrest,Didn't say that. it was all done by Pakistanis in Pakistan for their reasons. He was arrested in Paksitan by Pakistani soldiers. No US constitutional issues arising.How could there be? Fine, let's run with that for a sec.

How did Habib end up being incarcerated in Gitmo, a US prison camp, for three years, immediately following his arrest? Egypt turned him over to us. With NO charges being laid by any country at all, including the USA, and least of all Pakistan?Egypt interrogated him and claims he's a part of Al-Qaeda. Tell me, does the USA provide prison facilities to Pakistan that they don't have?Irrelevent. No matter how the question is answered, he still doesn't get protection by the US constitution. Or do they do it for cheaper or something? And why has Pakistan not even been mentioned since Habib's arrest? Didn't they want him back? Apparantly not, but the issue here is still if he gets protection by the US constitution or not. You can show he was screwed by Pakistan, Egypt, Australia and the US of A and still fail to address that issue.

C'mon, Mycroft - don't insult our intelligence or your own. It's very simple: If Habib was really such a bad guy, why have they released him without charge?

I don't know, but it seems to me this is a logical fallacy on par with assuming his guilt because he was arrested. Our government has already declined to prosecute some known terrorists because doing so would force revelation of secret information. So we know there are some circumstances where someone known to be guilty will not be prosecuted, it's not difficult to imagine there are other circumstances as well.
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The Fool said:
...just crap as usual....
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You're welcome to Habib Fool. Here's hoping he moves to a neighborhood near you and those you love.

I guess we'll get to wait and see what Habib gets up to in future. Should be interesting. I'm just glad to be far, far away from that little experiment.

Good luck Fool...should Habib end up killing someone there will be many here to remind you of your kind support of (potential/alledged) dangerous terrorists.

-z
 
The Fool said:
This story is just being released in australia. Mamdouh Habib, kidnapped in Pakistan transported to a US gulag and held without charge or trial is to be released.

It appears that the US army cannot figure out anything to charge him with as they have no evidence that is sufficient to support a charge... The Australian government has indicated he will not be charged with anything when he returns to Australia because they can't think of a law he has broken either.

Hopefully this shamefull episode is winding down to a conclusion...I want all you apologists that supported the detention of this man to go outside and wack yourselves on the arse with a stick while yelling "sorry Mamdouh".
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The little turd was captured in Afghanistan/Pakistan in an armed conflict while supporting a self admitted terrorist organization called the Taliban/Al Qaeda. The Europeans can round up terrorism enablers, just on that basis.

Why are you, in your common apologist mode, not railing against the Germans this week, for example. After all these poor innocents they are arresting are only doing what they believe in, which is working to destroy anything connected with democracy. We should respect their rights to believe in that, according to your kind?

This one is being released as a political gesture to Australia, to give one less piece of ammunition to the heel nipping hounds that support his kind. So what?
 
Mycroft said:
I don't know, but it seems to me this is a logical fallacy on par with assuming his guilt because he was arrested. Our government has already declined to prosecute some known terrorists because doing so would force revelation of secret information. So we know there are some circumstances where someone known to be guilty will not be prosecuted, it's not difficult to imagine there are other circumstances as well.
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Well, you've certainly created a no lose scenario here. Habib could actually be guilty but the US has decided not to pursue it because of the things it might reveal. Then why release Habib? Why not keep him detained? They had no problem detaining him for three years without charging him, so why not indefinitely.

If what you are saying turns out to be true, the US has just released a terrorist back into the world all because they are afraid that the revelations from trial would be too damaging.

I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous your rationalization is!
 
KelvinG said:
Well, you've certainly created a no lose scenario here. Habib could actually be guilty but the US has decided not to pursue it because of the things it might reveal. Then why release Habib? Why not keep him detained? They had no problem detaining him for three years without charging him, so why not indefinitely.

If what you are saying turns out to be true, the US has just released a terrorist back into the world all because they are afraid that the revelations from trial would be too damaging.

I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous your rationalization is!
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Well that strange little bump on Habib's head...the knock he doesn't remember getting? Yeah, that's where the secret CIA satty x-ponder is located. ;)

In any event, I doubt that no one's keeping a really close eye on him.

-z
 
rikzilla said:
Well that strange little bump on Habib's head...the knock he doesn't remember getting? Yeah, that's where the secret CIA satty x-ponder is located. ;)

In any event, I doubt that no one's keeping a really close eye on him.

-z
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What bump is that? Could it be the kind that some of these degenerates deliberately put there when they bounce their head on the ground, to show their badge of purity?
 
Originally posted by KelvinG
Well, you've certainly created a no lose scenario here. Habib could actually be guilty but the US has decided not to pursue it because of the things it might reveal.
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I make no claims for Habib. I only point out that his being released is no more proof of innocence than his arrest was proof of guilt.

Originally posted by KelvinG
Then why release Habib? Why not keep him detained? They had no problem detaining him for three years without charging him, so why not indefinitely.
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I don’t know, but I don’t need to know in order to point out that his release in not proof of innocence. There are many scenarios where it might be advantageous to release a guilty man, I only mentioned one.

Originally posted by KelvinG
If what you are saying turns out to be true, the US has just released a terrorist back into the world all because they are afraid that the revelations from trial would be too damaging.
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Or he may have been released for another reason. In any case, his release is not proof of innocence any more than his arrest was proof of guilt. There are many circumstances where an innocent man may be arrested, just as there are circumstances where a guilty man might be released.

Originally posted by KelvinG
I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous your rationalization is!
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What I think is ridiculous is the assertions made without evidence on behalf of this man.
 
Re: Re: US Army to release kidnapped Australian.

Elind said:
The little turd was captured in Afghanistan/Pakistan in an armed conflict while supporting a self admitted terrorist organization called the Taliban/Al Qaeda. The Europeans can round up terrorism enablers, just on that basis.

Why are you, in your common apologist mode, not railing against the Germans this week, for example. After all these poor innocents they are arresting are only doing what they believe in, which is working to destroy anything connected with democracy. We should respect their rights to believe in that, according to your kind?

This one is being released as a political gesture to Australia, to give one less piece of ammunition to the heel nipping hounds that support his kind. So what?
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Lol...what a wanker.

Is it Afghanistan or pakistan? What country is Afghanistan/pakistan? Is that the same sort of country as america/mexico? He was not captured in an armed conflict, that is a simple and obvious lie...not even the US army attempted to claim that one. And what support did he give terrorist organisations? Do you have any evidence? If so, give it to the US army...they just released him for lack of it...how dare you keep it from them.
can you supply any confirmation that he is being released as a "political gesture to australia" or does GWB telephone you with inside info?

I am increasingly amazed at the fantasy world all the apologists live in...whats next, Habib is secretly a martian? Grasp at straws you loosers..... This is an ongoing pathetic farce and anyone who supports it should be ashamed of themselves
 
rikzilla said:
You're welcome to Habib Fool. Here's hoping he moves to a neighborhood near you and those you love.

I guess we'll get to wait and see what Habib gets up to in future. Should be interesting. I'm just glad to be far, far away from that little experiment.

Good luck Fool...should Habib end up killing someone there will be many here to remind you of your kind support of (potential/alledged) dangerous terrorists.

-z
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I hate to tell you this rick but your town is full of people just like habib...no charges against them, no evidence against them....I wonder how people would feel about living near you if they new they could be dragged away to concentratiuon camps without charges trials or evidence and all you would do is applaud. You are a traitor to the principles your nation was founded on....shame.
 
What have the detainees being held in Australian's detainment camps been charged with?What crimes have they committed?The fact that those camps exist at all tells the world everything it needs to know about racism & intolerence in Australia.
If American held the Mexicans who entered our country illegally indefinitly ,without charges etc..as you Aussies are doing...you'd scream bloody murder.Hypocrisy !!clean up your own backyard first.
 
a_unique_person said:
At least you seem to be convinced at last there was no evidence to jail and torture him for three years, I can only hope the others come to their senses soon.
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I can't imagine what convinced you of that.

As for "comming to their senses soon", they man was released.
 
waitew said:
What have the detainees being held in Australian's detainment camps been charged with?What crimes have they committed?The fact that those camps exist at all tells the world everything it needs to know about racism & intolerence in Australia.
If American held the Mexicans who entered our country illegally indefinitly ,without charges etc..as you Aussies are doing...you'd scream bloody murder.Hypocrisy !!clean up your own backyard first.
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As I have said already, I don't agree with the process at all, and think it is a national disgrace. Any pressure on Australia to change it's attitude to this problem from overseas is welcome.

Australians often seem to have an attitude that they are good people who don't do anything bad, while conveniently overlooking the obvious.

In the case of Habib, he is an Australian national, who was held in American detention without trial for three years. Our conservative government, however, was quite content for this to be done by the US, with no diplomatic pressure or protests.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: US Army to release kidnapped Australian.

Zep said:
I suspect you are thinking of someone else.

http://prisonerswithouttrials.net/cases/Folder.2004-04-17.5039429079/Document.2004-04-17.5585093830

Care to provide a source for your claim of nefarious wrongdoings?
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At the court, Habib met some Egyptian friends including Ibrahim El-Gabrowny, who introduced him to Mahmud Abouhalima later convicted for his role in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Maha says the meeting was coincidental. Some of the men were old friends and her husband spent time with them reminiscing, not plotting. “I believe in my husband, that he’s done nothing,” she said.

Later he was asked for funds for blind Muslim cleric Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, who was convicted of a plot to blow up several New York landmarks and is serving a life prison term. Abdel Rahman supposedly was being denied medical treatment, and Habib sent $500, according to his lawyer, Stephen Hopper.

Habib’s links with the radical Muslims led the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation to ask him to become an informant he refused, says Hopper. The agency then began questioning others in Australia’s Muslim community about Habib, raising suspicions among worshippers at Sydney’s Lakemba community prayer group that he was a spy.
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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-8-2003_pg7_53

The reason he wanted to leave Australia was that his fellow muslims felt he was a spy due to the agency questioning people. Spy for what?

He was arrested in Pakistan for suspicion of being involved in 9/11. This can't be proved, but what was he doing hanging out with al-Queda operatives? Does this really sound like some honest Joe out looking for a better life? After Pakistan he was moved to Egypt where he was tortured, the Guantanamo.

Here's another link to what he allegedly endured in Egypt:

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=8671

I say allegedly because I haven't seen any more proof that he was tortured than I have that he was directly involved in 9/11. What I have seen a lot of in stories about him are accounts of him being associated with WTC bombers and al-Queda. One account had him wearing a T-shirt with Jihadist propaganda on it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: US Army to release kidnapped Australian.

peptoabysmal said:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-8-2003_pg7_53

The reason he wanted to leave Australia was that his fellow muslims felt he was a spy due to the agency questioning people. Spy for what?

He was arrested in Pakistan for suspicion of being involved in 9/11. This can't be proved, but what was he doing hanging out with al-Queda operatives? Does this really sound like some honest Joe out looking for a better life? After Pakistan he was moved to Egypt where he was tortured, the Guantanamo.

Here's another link to what he allegedly endured in Egypt:

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=8671

I say allegedly because I haven't seen any more proof that he was tortured than I have that he was directly involved in 9/11. What I have seen a lot of in stories about him are accounts of him being associated with WTC bombers and al-Queda. One account had him wearing a T-shirt with Jihadist propaganda on it.
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So arrest every member of the KKK then.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: US Army to release kidnapped Australian.

a_unique_person said:
So arrest every member of the KKK then.
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If any members of the KKK were suspected to be a part of the WTC bombing or any other terrorist act, murder, whatever, I'm sure they would have been arrested or at least brought in for questioning. Habib was suspected of being involved in 9/11. What happened after that is shrouded in a cloud of politics.

Does anyone have a source which proves that Habib was transferred to Egypt by the U.S.? (This is Habib's claim) and if so, what is the legality of doing that?
 
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