Uproar over "Russsian Roulette" Stunt.

Derren Brown

He did do it pretty well, even though there was no way his life was ever in danger.

The trouble with acts like his is that it's impossible to tell what he is really doing by sleight of hand and by being very good at reading people, and how much is set-up with lots of assistants, hidden cameras and microphones etc.

It was interesting that the final five people he chose out of a hundred as the group to pick the gun loader from were all male - is this because men are more easy to read or manipulate? But then, he probably would have predicted they would all be male as he knew exactly the type he was looking for.

At least there was skill and style and showmanship involved here - not like just sitting in a box pretending to starve to death.
 
The stunt was done in Jersey, and the Jersey police are a bunch of spoilsports :mad:

Superintendent John Pearson said Jersey police were informed of the stunt before it took place.

However, having examined how the stunt would work, they were satisfied it would not break any of the island's gun laws.

Asked if he had been concerned that somebody was going to fire a loaded gun at their head, he said: "If what was portrayed on TV was going to happen, then we did have concerns.

"So a senior officer contacted Channel 4 and then we found out.

"We were absolutely satisfied that, firstly, there would no offences committed in Jersey in relation to any laws at all and secondly, that no-one was in any danger whatsoever."

Mr Pearson said that to hold a firearm "that could fire a lethal shot" on the island would have required a licence and the programme makers did not have a licence.

Asked whether that meant it was not a real gun, he said: "It is not for me to go into the intricacies of what Channel 4 did to make this programme.

"All I can reassure you is that we are entirely satisfied that no offences were committed."
Click to expand...

I should think that Derren Brown and his team are a bit annoyed about that.

Full story.
 
For Aussie viewers, Derren Brown's Mind Control series premieres on the Nine network at 10:30pm AEST tonight.
 
I don't think that I am easily tricked (although I could be wrong), and am aware of some of the psychological techniques Derren Brown uses. I have also been to see him perform live.

Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.

Two of the techniques he uses to make his "guesses" include:

Reading small movements in the lips, neck, and other parts of the face when the subject is saying that word over and over in their head - I suppose it is natural that when you say a word in your head, you also make some movements that you would make when saying it out loud. It was notable that he asked his subject to do this for the Russian roulette, and paid very close attention to his face when the subject repeated it.

When the subject counts out loud, there can also be tell-tale signs, such as hesitations, emphasis on some words, etc. If you listen back to this occasion, you can sense a relaxation on "3,4,5,6", suggesting the bullet was in chambers 1 or 2.

So, I think DB guessed it was in 1 or 2, and so safely started with chamber 3. He also said out loud, several times "I believe chamber 3 is safe". I think he did this as an extra safety check. The guy who loaded the bullet was probably instructed beforehand to intervene at this stage if DB had guessed wrong. DB said on a radio interview that he would rather face humilitation than death, and so was prepared to withdraw if he wasn't 100%confident.

Having had this unspoken confirmation, I think the rest of the show was choreographed to maximise the effect. He shot the empty chamber toward the sand bag to trick the audience into thinking that he wasn't sure, and build up the tension more. The look of fear on his face looked genuine at the time, but perhaps not. The 2-minute pause was also done for effect.

I think he is an incredibly impressive performer, and that he does not trick his audience - he is just extremely skilled at what he does.

It was brilliant, terrifying TV.

Stevie G.
 
Was it ethical (to get back to the topic)? Sure, I can't be responsible for every numbnut who tries to copy me but doesn't have the intelligence to do it right. As a matter of fact I would say the guy is doing a public service, helping to rid the world of people with so little critical reasoning ability that they would try to copycat (and before you ask, yes I extend this judgement even unto the little children and the parents who failed to educate them).
A bit harsh? Certainly, but don't take this to mean that I'm bloodthirsty and hope that people die. I just don't agree with the biblical maxim "I am my brothers keeper". You are responsible for what you do not me reagardless of what I do. If I jump of a cliff and you jump after me, it's not my fault that you're lying on the canyon floor, broken. Short of direct exhortations, a person should not be held responsible for the actions of another.
 
Stevie -G- said:
Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.
Click to expand...
I have some beans for sale. These are magic beans...
 
russian roulette

Oooh, magic beans. Can I have some? I swapped my cow for some a couple of weeks ago but they don't seem to be working. I think they're broken.

I don't think DB should be held responsible for the 'moral' content of what he did. While kiddies need to be protected, I don't want to live in a nannie state that controls what I can watch. The show was on after 9pm (the watershed) so any parents letting small kids watch it have only themselves to blame. As for older people, if someone is dumb enough to copy the stunt, they are the type of person who would do something incredibly stupid anyway and then try to blame someone else after (if they're still alive).

If you watched Titus Andronicus and then went out and slaughtered a load of people, would Shakespeare be banned? OK, I know there are issues with guns, but knee-jerk reactions are not going to solve anything.
 
Re: russian roulette

severin said:

If you watched Titus Andronicus and then went out and slaughtered a load of people, would Shakespeare be banned? OK, I know there are issues with guns, but knee-jerk reactions are not going to solve anything.
Click to expand...

As was said somewhere else, whats the big diff between this and the old "put the tart in a box and saw her in half" trick? I mean, if people are actually going to saw each other in half because they saw that on a magic show Ill resign from the human race altogether!
 
Stevie -G- said:
I don't think that I am easily tricked (although I could be wrong), and am aware of some of the psychological techniques Derren Brown uses. I have also been to see him perform live.

Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.

Two of the techniques he uses to make his "guesses" include:

Reading small movements in the lips, neck, and other parts of the face when the subject is saying that word over and over in their head - I suppose it is natural that when you say a word in your head, you also make some movements that you would make when saying it out loud. It was notable that he asked his subject to do this for the Russian roulette, and paid very close attention to his face when the subject repeated it.

When the subject counts out loud, there can also be tell-tale signs, such as hesitations, emphasis on some words, etc. If you listen back to this occasion, you can sense a relaxation on "3,4,5,6", suggesting the bullet was in chambers 1 or 2.

So, I think DB guessed it was in 1 or 2, and so safely started with chamber 3. He also said out loud, several times "I believe chamber 3 is safe". I think he did this as an extra safety check. The guy who loaded the bullet was probably instructed beforehand to intervene at this stage if DB had guessed wrong. DB said on a radio interview that he would rather face humilitation than death, and so was prepared to withdraw if he wasn't 100%confident.

Having had this unspoken confirmation, I think the rest of the show was choreographed to maximise the effect. He shot the empty chamber toward the sand bag to trick the audience into thinking that he wasn't sure, and build up the tension more. The look of fear on his face looked genuine at the time, but perhaps not. The 2-minute pause was also done for effect.

I think he is an incredibly impressive performer, and that he does not trick his audience - he is just extremely skilled at what he does.

It was brilliant, terrifying TV.

Stevie G.
Click to expand...

I agree that Derren is an excellent illusionist.
However I don't believe he really played Russian Roulette, and neither does richardm, who provided that helpful link showing the police licensed Derren because "no-one was in any danger whatsoever."
 
Russian Roulette

I watched the last part of the show again tonight and when DB was talking the bloke through what he had to do, he did say ONE quite a few times. For example "I want you to choose ONE number". The trouble is, the more you watch it, the more you wonder just how much trickery there was - was the bloke loading the gun an actor?

I read in the paper today that 3.3 million watched the show (not bad for UK terrestrial TV) and only four people complained to the channel. Most of the fuss has been generated by journalists (suprise).
 
Re: Russian Roulette

severin said:
I watched the last part of the show again tonight and when DB was talking the bloke through what he had to do, he did say ONE quite a few times. For example "I want you to choose ONE number". The trouble is, the more you watch it, the more you wonder just how much trickery there was - was the bloke loading the gun an actor?
Click to expand...
Excerpt from the transcript:


[...]
If it f**ks up it's not your fault, alright?

Pick up the gun.

Put the gun under the table.

Can you see the numbers?

(Yes)

OK. Move it around a bit, familiarise yourself with the numbers, make sure you can see them clearly.

I want you to choose one of those numbers, you keep that number to yourself, but have a look at them now, and choose one. This number you choose now, it doesn't matter which one it is, you can change your mind as many times as you like, but you make that decision for me and you settle on a number.

Are you thinking of one now?

(Yup).

Alright. You need to repeat that number to yourself over and over again quietly in your head. Fix that number in your mind.

Pick up the bullet.

[...]


The thing is, we know he uses suggestion in some tricks, in the stone-paper-scissors one, or when he guesses what letter someone is thinking of. However, he also misdirects the viewer, as JamesM pointed out in the other Russian Roulette thread, so there is no way to know what really happened.

I think he does use suggestion but also relies on other methods to be on the safe side (e.g. a fake gun); an example would be the "watch under the cup" trick where he appears to use the same technique as in stone-paper-scissors to suggest "cup 2", but the guy actually puts the watch under cup 1 and DB still finds it. In the case of the Russian Roulette, there was probably no risk involved, but if there was, it would still have 'worked'.

Liam
 
derren brown

We didn't actually see the bullet going into the gun either. There are so many ways the trick could have been done. I know magicians never reveal how they do their tricks, but I would love to know how he did it.
 
I honestly don't think it matters whether he was in danger at all. All that matters to me is that for a ten minute period I was fascinated, entertained, and completely enthralled by the trick. It was a superb piece of showmanship, the most gripping television I've seen in many years.

I doubt he was ever in any real danger, but for just a few minutes it was believable and I was mystified, amazed and entertained.

And that's what magic is all about, isn't it?
 
But I hate not knowing!!

If the man who loaded the gun was an actor and he didn't put a live round in, that would be disappointing as the skill would then not be DB's.
 
I can think of at least one technique that I'd use if I had to perform the same trick. It'd be completely foolproof, wouldn't use a stooge, and I'd never be in danger.

I don't believe for an instant that Derren Brown used a technique where he'd have to rely on influencing the person from the audience. And to rely on reading the volunteer's involunatry muscle movements would be suicidal.

Nope, great theatre, but a safe trick.
 
Re: Nothing New!

magicflute said:
I have a video that must be close to 20 years old of Larry Becker performing "Russian Roulette" stunt! He added a couple of twists but basicaly the same thing.
:bgrin:
Click to expand...

I have a tape of a magician doing the Russian Roulette performance, and I think it might be the same person; Larry Becker. I'll have to do some digging through my video tapes to find out.

This piece of Russian Roulette magic has been around for a long time. Maybe as long as The Bullet Catch has. However, if performed well, it is still a great piece of magic.

To answer a_unique_person's question about the performance being unethical or not: my opinion would be it is unethical only if the performer did not take every precaution to ensure it was done abolutetly safely. There is no drama without danger, but there must only be danger in the minds of the audience members; never for real.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom