Universal Income.

(as I pointed out earlier, if the UBI matched the age pension in Australia, it would cost $300b a year).
It's already been explained many times that UBI would not supplement pensions but replace part of them and be funded through lowered tax free thresholds but you seem determined to remain inside your hay stack.

This is one reason why it won’t happen.
No, it's because you have the same mentality as Peter Dutton to welfare.
 
It's already been explained many times that UBI would not supplement pensions but replace part of them and be funded through lowered tax free thresholds but you seem determined to remain inside your hay stack..
There is also the issue of looking this as an "expense" as in a new cost. It's money that is already flowing somewhere. It's about like saying it can't be true that the Australian GDP is 1.4 trillion dollars because no one could afford that!
 
Show me where. I’ve just seen a few half hearted proposals to tax the rich and multi nationals, but no actual plan apart from “UBI good”.

Come on, lionking. You know that's not true. There have been more than one detailed posts on this very issue. What's with the attitude in this thread?
 
As I said, it is a thought experiment, and its my thought experiment, so only I get to set the conditions. No-one else is allowed to question the aspects of it, they are only allowed to agree or disagree with the conclusions.

For the purposes of the thought experiment, you must take it as read that there IS a rich benefactor who will do this, otherwise its not my thought experiment an more.

The only valid responses are "agree" or "disagree" with the conclusion. Once you have done that, only then do you get to argue why you agree or disagree.

I am taking this somewhere once I get a consensus

It's pretty amazing that you have to explain the concept of a thought experiment/hypothetical to a grown adult.
 
If his logic is so sound, why are UBI systems not commonplace?

Breathtaking illogic.

(Going back in time a bit) ... if the idea of universal suffrage is so sound, why don't women have the vote?

Good reply, GlennB.

lionking, we've already had pilot programs under another name here in Australia and in the UK.

These were the coronavirus payments/supplements.

Newstart, the dole, these were simplified and increased, and jobs weren't needed to be applied for in return for the payments.

Now let's see how the liberal governments say how well their policies worked.
 
It's pretty amazing that you have to explain the concept of a thought experiment/hypothetical to a grown adult.

It is indeed disappointing that I need to take "skeptics" back to high school for remedial learning. What some here are trying is to redefine my thought experiment so that it asks the question they want asked, so that it fits the answer they want to give. Nothing in real life works that way.

Perhaps if they thought of it as being like an exam... the examiner set the exam, and the student reads the questions and answers them. The Student does not get to say "well I don't like the way you have arranged things in that question". If you try doing that in your exam, you will get zero marks for that question... do it too many times, and you will fail.
 
Breathtaking illogic.

(Going back in time a bit) ... if the idea of universal suffrage is so sound, why don't women have the vote?

Going back to about the same time period... if the idea of having children working in coal mines was so sound, why was the 1933 Children and Young Persons Act passed by parliament?
 
It's pretty amazing that you have to explain the concept of a thought experiment/hypothetical to a grown adult.

It is indeed disappointing that I need to take "skeptics" back to high school for remedial learning.
Excuse me but we're here and can hear you. In the first place I started my post with a simple "yes" taking your hypothetical at face value. In the second place, you don't control me or the thread so it is perfectly fine for us to go ahead and say what we think without your permission.
 
As I said, it is a thought experiment, and its my thought experiment, so only I get to set the conditions. No-one else is allowed to question the aspects of it, they are only allowed to agree or disagree with the conclusions.

For the purposes of the thought experiment, you must take it as read that there IS a rich benefactor who will do this, otherwise its not my thought experiment an more.

The only valid responses are "agree" or "disagree" with the conclusion. Once you have done that, only then do you get to argue why you agree or disagree.

I am taking this somewhere once I get a consensus

So what? I stayed on topic, and while I do that I do not have to follow your directions.
 
Oh wow. This is obviously a no brainer. I wonder why it hasn’t been implemented.....

Oh, no I don’t. It hasn’t because it is utopian, economically irresponsible and stupid. Even the Scandinavian socialists haven’t implemented this. Wonder why.......
If his logic is so sound, why are UBI systems not commonplace?
Because doing it properly will require large-scale reorganisation of society, government and the economy. There is a lot of sunk cost in the status quo, and a huge change to be made in implementing a real UBI. Governments are conservative by nature - this kind of radical change does not come easily.

That's certainly a normal first thought about this, but do we have actual numbers to support either claim?
No, we don't, because as I said upthread, nobody has done a proper test of UBI. We have small scale experiments considering elements of the UBI package, but no-one has gone the whole way.
 
Excuse me but we're here and can hear you. In the first place I started my post with a simple "yes" taking your hypothetical at face value. In the second place, you don't control me or the thread so it is perfectly fine for us to go ahead and say what we think without your permission.

I may not control you, but I do control the question I want to ask. You can either answer the question or not, that's up to you and I don't give a damn either way.

However, if you try to alter or change my question I will tell you that "you don't control me or the thread". Capisce?
 
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Because doing it properly will require large-scale reorganisation of society, government and the economy. There is a lot of sunk cost in the status quo, and a huge change to be made in implementing a real UBI.
Why would a simple means test free payment that has no eligibility rules attached require so much additional bureaucracy? This could be administered through the Australian Taxation Office without even employing extra staff.
 
Why would a simple means test free payment that has no eligibility rules attached require so much additional bureaucracy? This could be administered through the Australian Taxation Office without even employing extra staff.
There's a whole host of issues that accompany any Machinery of Government (MoG) changes. Believe me - I've worked through three just in my current job. It's never straightforward. It's true that once it is all complete, it will end up in a much simpler configuration. It's getting there that's the complicated part.
 
Why would a simple means test free payment that has no eligibility rules attached require so much additional bureaucracy? This could be administered through the Australian Taxation Office without even employing extra staff.

How will it be funded?
 
How will it be funded?

Since you refuse to debate honestly (e.g., dogmatically repeating that its unworkable without giving your reasons why) then you don't deserve an honest answer.

Go back to post #366, read it, and at least make a genuine effort to understand it then, and without trying to reframe the question to suit yourself, give an honest answer as to whether you agree or disagree with the conclusions.

If you agree, then we can move to the next step.

If you disagree, then justify your reason for doing so.
 
We've been through this.

No we really haven’t. Taxing the rich and large multi-nationals is not a plan on its own.

If a UBI system is going to be self-funding, show how. If you come up with figures I can guarantee it would be politically impossible. Labor lost an election over cutting franking credits enjoyed by wealthy retirees, which was not even a tax rise. Taxing large multi-nationals looks good on paper - until they close their Australian operations.

We are facing a $A1trillion deficit as it is. Without (impossible) tax rises, this will balloon.
 
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Since you refuse to debate honestly (e.g., dogmatically repeating that its unworkable without giving your reasons why) then you don't deserve an honest answer.

Go back to post #366, read it, and at least make a genuine effort to understand it then, and without trying to reframe the question to suit yourself, give an honest answer as to whether you agree or disagree with the conclusions.

If you agree, then we can move to the next step.

If you disagree, then justify your reason for doing so.

Sorry I stopped believing in Santa long ago, so I’m not going to engage in a fairy tale hypothetical.
 

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