Unitarian Church?

Tiktaalik said:
Rakovsky, what I've heard all my life is that this is exactly what the UU church has been struggling with for many years. It's kind of a matter of definition - a 'who are we?'. As you probably know, the Unitarians and Universalists originally merged specifically to deal with Civil Rights in the early 1960s - but after that, where do they go?

It has turned out that the UU congregations are so diverse in background (yet physically rather homogeneous) that nothing they do can satisfy everyone. They are going to have to settle for satisfying a specific group and cater to that group more strongly; right now they are trying to be everything for everyone, it seems to me.

Not much clearer, sorry.
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OK, I see. What do you mean by physically homogenous?

It seems to me that if they are actually dedicated to Unitarianism, that they should at least cut out any teachings supporting atheism or clear Polytheism. Of course they can make their church whatever they want.

But with 500 years of history like you said, they really could systematize doctrines and luminaries in the way that "traditional" Quakers have done.

They could create a clear basic school of thought or theology on Unitarianism just like other religions have done with their ideologies. They could focus on God and the writings about Him by the leading Unitarians like Ferenc in 16th century Romania.

I think the fact that they don't do this makes it harder for people to stay dedicated and focused on their UU church, because like you said, it doesn't come across with set beliefs. It's disconcerting that online the internet there are next to no UU internet forums, even though there are plenty of forums for Christian groups, skeptics, agnostics, and Atheists.

On a sidenote, I am actually very skeptical that a strictly "Mono-Unitarian" view of God would actually be correct if He exists. Even aside from Christianity's particular claims about Jesus, it makes sense that God could be seen as a "unity" of beings in the Torah, since God is called Elohim, a plural word, even in the Jewish Schema. Over some subsequent recent millenia, the rabbinical community could simply have avoided and reinterpreted this original non-Unitarian view in reaction to Christianity or for the sake of simplification.
 
rakovsky said:
OK, Loss. Anything else?
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Well, to be perfectly honest, I've found Conservative Judaism to be devoid of any sort of "holier-than-thou" attitude. When you show up, they're glad to see you. If you want to take part, you can take part. And if you want to do very little, nobody is going to send a note saying they miss you.

There's no concept of sin (at least, not like the Christian concept). There's no nonsense about an afterlife or hell. And nobody actually believes the literal truth of anything earlier than, say, Jericho.

Women have an equal role. In fact, our Rabbi is a woman. Most of the people who read Torah are women. The people who lift the Torah are men because that thing is heavy.

The songs are nice. After services there are bagels. Nobody comes to your home to inspect whether you keep kosher or are eating bread on Passover.

And the very baseline morality isn't much more complicated than, "Be a good family member and occassionally drive someone to the airport."

I don't believe in God, obviously. But I like the idea of my children knowing from whom they came and what was sacrificed to give them their lives.

Also, once a year, you dress the kids up in stupid costumes and they play ring toss to win a goldfish.

This is the American Conservative movement. The Orthodox and Hassidim are a whole other story.
 
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Loss Leader said:
Well, to be perfectly honest, I've found Conservative Judaism to be devoid of any sort of "holier-than-thou" attitude. When you show up, they're glad to see you. If you want to take part, you can take part. And if you want to do very little, nobody is going to send a note saying they miss you.

There's no concept of sin (at least, not like the Christian concept). There's no nonsense about an afterlife or hell. And nobody actually believes the literal truth of anything earlier than, say, Jericho.

Women have an equal role. In fact, our Rabbi is a woman. Most of the people who read Torah are women. The people who lift the Torah are men because that thing is heavy.

The songs are nice. After services there are bagels. Nobody comes to your home to inspect whether you keep kosher or are eating bread on Passover.

And the very baseline morality isn't much more complicated than, "Be a good family member and occassionally drive someone to the airport."

I don't believe in God, obviously. But I like the idea of my children knowing from whom they came and what was sacrificed to give them their lives.

Also, once a year, you dress the kids up in stupid costumes and they play ring toss to win a goldfish.

This is the American Conservative movement. The Orthodox and Hassidim are a whole other story.
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I am very fond of the unassuming and self-critical humor, like "stupid costumes".

Doesn't Conservative teach God? The first Commandment written by Yahweh for obedience under Moses' Torah is “You shall have no other gods before Me.” The last words people are supposed to say is the Schema about God. If you convert to Conservative Judaism, don't you practically have to say at some point in the ritual that you believe in God? To whom are all the prayers supposed to go according to Conservative Judaism?

If your answer is that Conservative Judaism emphasizes God, but that is irrelevant, then based on this criteria, one who doesn't believe in Jesus' miracles might as well stay in a Christian church if they let him/her stay, as if it's irrelevant.

I could find a Christian church that meets all your criteria, including full tolerance of people with other beliefs, if I take the view that the sect's primary belief, eg. God or Jesus' miracles, is irrelevant.

Besides, the main affirmative reason you gave for joining in your passage above is that your kids know their background and play games:
I like the idea of my children knowing from whom they came and what was sacrificed to give them their lives.
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The other reasons were basically that they don't teach original sin, pressure you into activities, and have complicated morality. You also asserted bagels, friendship, and women's equality in services.

Getting back to the main question in the thread, isn't Conservative Judaism in its lowest common denominator fundamentally belief in God, adherence to certain rules and rituals like circumcision, and a vague self-identification with the community and tradition?
 
rakovsky said:
Getting back to the main question in the thread, isn't Conservative Judaism in its lowest common denominator fundamentally belief in God, adherence to certain rules and rituals like circumcision, and a vague self-identification with the community and tradition?
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I'm sure most people believe in God. I don't. Nobody is going to quiz you.

Nobody is going to check whether you are adhering to any specific rules or rituals, either. Shared rituals do have an important place with social animals such as humans. I enjoy seeing family on Passover and will be proud to see my sons Bar Mitzvahed.

If one is uncircumcised and one wishes to convert to Judaism, I believe circumcision is one of the steps. However, there's a far, far easier way to convert to Judaism: just tell people you're Jewish. Literally, nobody will check. And nobody will inspect your shmeckle.

But if one is looking for a nice vaguely-religious community to join such as a unitarian church, I would recommend at least stopping by a Conservative or Reform Friday night service. If one is an avowed atheist with no desire for any religious life, I don't think any of these options are right for you.
 
Unitarianism and Unitarian Universalism don't require specific beliefs, it/they are noncredal religions that are based on a compact with each other regarding interaction and toleration of their various beliefs. Often humanists are the majority. They have seven principles, none of which require or ban theistic beliefs. Their informal motto is 'deeds, not creeds'. They tend to be white and middle class and poor at communal singing, perhaps related to their reputation for reading ahead to see if they agree with the words. On the other hand, they are strong on social justice and other progressive issues. Each congregation is unique, and YMMV greatly depending on which one you attend.
 
I attended a Unitarian church for several years. Two oft-repeated summaries of Unitarian philosophy:
1/ Unitarians pray "to whom it may concern."
2/ The highest sacrament of the Unitarian Church is the potluck supper.
 
Loss Leader said:
I'm sure most people believe in God. I don't. Nobody is going to quiz you.

Nobody is going to check whether you are adhering to any specific rules or rituals, either. Shared rituals do have an important place with social animals such as humans. I enjoy seeing family on Passover and will be proud to see my sons Bar Mitzvahed.

If one is uncircumcised and one wishes to convert to Judaism, I believe circumcision is one of the steps. However, there's a far, far easier way to convert to Judaism: just tell people you're Jewish. Literally, nobody will check. And nobody will inspect your shmeckle.

But if one is looking for a nice vaguely-religious community to join such as a unitarian church, I would recommend at least stopping by a Conservative or Reform Friday night service. If one is an avowed atheist with no desire for any religious life, I don't think any of these options are right for you.
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Hello, Loss.

I find Judaism, like Christianity interesting, and I believe in God.
As to the rituals though like circumcision, Passover, Purim, dietary rules, why should the religious sect I join follow them? Your answer seems to be simply that social creatures like humans have rituals, and this is good. Of course, as a broad principle, I agree. However, a few basic rituals, if they were irrelevant to God's commands, I am not fond of, like the MGM (and I don't mean that offensively, you understand?).

I understand that generally people don't check if you follow the basic rules like restricting your own food, but they are still defining of the religion that I would be joining. Speaking realistically, people would check or find out, even inadvertently, if you are following the basic requirements. And if you are convert, failure to do so has a much bigger impact than a "natural member". If you convert, they do the shmeckle thing, and if you make up your background to avoid it, your best friends will find out if you actually do form close bonds. If you're a convert, regularly make cheeseburgers, eat hot dogs, and dine on shrimp, your good friends are going to notice.

Anyway, I said that I was looking for a religion whose theology I actually agree with. I understand that you can say that old stories in the Bible are myths, but then there's the assertion that these founding rituals and rules are divinely instituted. So based on the way you are describing it, it would just be like joining a social club where I didn't actually agree with what people were saying and some of the rituals and rules I disliked and depended on people not checking if I followed them.

In saying this, I am not actually ruling out Judaism. For all I know, God really could have instituted the rituals and rules and inspire those ancient stories. If you accept Christianity, then you generally think that God did inspire those things. However, if one becomes a doubter about Christianity's miracles, then what would be a superior option to Unitarianism or nondogmatic Christianity and why?
 
rakovsky said:
Hello, Loss.

I find Judaism, like Christianity interesting, and I believe in God.
As to the rituals though like circumcision, Passover, Purim, dietary rules, why should the religious sect I join follow them? Your answer seems to be simply that social creatures like humans have rituals, and this is good. Of course, as a broad principle, I agree. However, a few basic rituals, if they were irrelevant to God's commands, I am not fond of, like the MGM (and I don't mean that offensively, you understand?).

I understand that generally people don't check if you follow the basic rules like restricting your own food, but they are still defining of the religion that I would be joining. Speaking realistically, people would check or find out, even inadvertently, if you are following the basic requirements. And if you are convert, failure to do so has a much bigger impact than a "natural member". If you convert, they do the shmeckle thing, and if you make up your background to avoid it, your best friends will find out if you actually do form close bonds. If you're a convert, regularly make cheeseburgers, eat hot dogs, and dine on shrimp, your good friends are going to notice.

Anyway, I said that I was looking for a religion whose theology I actually agree with. I understand that you can say that old stories in the Bible are myths, but then there's the assertion that these founding rituals and rules are divinely instituted. So based on the way you are describing it, it would just be like joining a social club where I didn't actually agree with what people were saying and some of the rituals and rules I disliked and depended on people not checking if I followed them.

In saying this, I am not actually ruling out Judaism. For all I know, God really could have instituted the rituals and rules and inspire those ancient stories. If you accept Christianity, then you generally think that God did inspire those things. However, if one becomes a doubter about Christianity's miracles, then what would be a superior option to Unitarianism or nondogmatic Christianity and why?
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Personally, I find Christianity's focus on sin and hell to be far more burdensome than any Jewish rule or regulation.

Not sure why you're contradicting me regarding what people will or will not know about you, let alone care. I don't keep kosher or observe the Sabbath. Nobody cares. If they see me at a restaurant or the movies then they're there, too.

You also seem pretty hung up on circumcision. There's a growing movement of Jews who reject circumcision. I would not think someone less Jewish for not being circumcised. And I certainly wouldn't check.

Unitarianism, to me, seems like pretty weak tea. But Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. I don't care what you do. And I have no desire to convince you one way or the other. I'm just informing you of my experience.
 
The problem with Unitarianism is that it simply does not offer what most people who are looking for a religon are looking for.
 
Loss Leader said:
Personally, I find Christianity's focus on sin and hell to be far more burdensome than any Jewish rule or regulation.
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If you follow very traditional Christianity and very traditional rabbinical Judaism, I think you would find the latter's rules more burdensome than the former's belief about sins. With Christianity you have to follow your conscience and avoid sinning, but with a very traditional rabbinical system, how many rules would you have to follow?

You can reply that you are not talking about that, you are talking about a Judaism where you don't have to follow or focus on the rules because people don't make you. The correct analogy in Christianity would be one where others don't check on you and make you follow or focus on morality and avoiding sinning.

And anyway, I don't think that traditional Christianity are so different on the concept of sins. With much of Christianity in the West, the idea is that people are born with original sin, and that there is a risk of hell. But Judaism also believes people sin and it has major rituals like Yom Kippur to deal with it. The concept of hell can found in the Old Testament, as Daniel 12:2 says: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
The Talmud also talks about people "boiling" or being otherwise badly tortured in the afterlife.

However, like I said, there are Christian and Jewish sects and groups of different sizes that don't particularly focus on these concepts like hell and sin. There is a noteworthy but minor trend of Universalism in traditional Christianity that predicts that everyone will be saved.

Not sure why you're contradicting me regarding what people will or will not know about you, let alone care. I don't keep kosher or observe the Sabbath. Nobody cares. If they see me at a restaurant or the movies then they're there, too.

You also seem pretty hung up on circumcision. There's a growing movement of Jews who reject circumcision. I would not think someone less Jewish for not being circumcised. And I certainly wouldn't check.
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Right, you are talking about you not being checked on, and not caring what others do. But realistically speaking if I were to convert to Judaism, the circumcision process would be imposed, unless I dishonestly claimed I were Jewish, which my friends could still end up finding out that I lied about, which could create a scandal. And realistically if I converted there would be a major chance that it would involve a process of classes about the rules, and at least a few people otherwise checking to see how my progress on the rules was going.

Unitarianism, to me, seems like pretty weak tea. But Judaism is not a proselytizing religion.
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I agree with both of those claims by you.

Judaism has some great "tea" aspects to it like 2500 year old moral and legendary texts, along with involved rituals and feeling like part of an ancient culture. But some other basic aspects serve as major obstacles. I mean, what are the rules that a convert accepted by his rabbi and community would realistically have to accept? It's not only take some classes and come to services occasionally, even though that might be more than what's required if you are born into the community.
 
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Rakovsky
...and I believe in God.
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I've been reading this thread and all the way through I keep thinking, but WHY? All gods are human ideas. I appreciate that we humans like routines and rituals, but for the interesting company of people, you could try contacting the American Humanists, or Atheists.
 
Great, you beleive in a god. Now:

Arrange communication.

Tabulate the rules exposited.

Obey them flexibly.

Obtain tax exemption.

Seek followers.

Extract cash.

Feel holy.

Get off my lawn.
 
rakovsky said:
And anyway, I don't think that traditional Christianity are so different on the concept of sins. With much of Christianity in the West, the idea is that people are born with original sin, and that there is a risk of hell. But Judaism also believes people sin and it has major rituals like Yom Kippur to deal with it.
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This is completely wrong. Though we're using the same word ("sin"), it has completely different meanings. There is no promise of heaven or threat of hell. The couple verses christianity has pulled out of some of the writings of the prophets are little more than propaganda. The entire concept of hell is a pagan one. There is no fear of hell in Judaism.

But it's obvious that you have some problems with Judaism. It's not for you.

It appears that, having been raised with a christian background, you're most comfortable with the traditions and concepts of christianity in at least some form. I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding an open and accepting church in which to take part.

Best of luck.
 
paulhutch said:
When choosing a church don't confuse Unitarianism with Unitarian Universalism, the former is a Christian sect and included a few US presidents most notably John Adams and his son. The latter is the much more common in modern times anything goes pseudo-religion.
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Maybe there's a difference between the US and the UK, but here a Unitarian church is definitely not a Christian sect.

The congregation my wife is part of is this one:

http://www.new-unity.org/

(she's the one in the gif at right front with my 4-year-old daughter.)
 
Matthew Best said:
Maybe there's a difference between the US and the UK, but here a Unitarian church is definitely not a Christian sect.

The congregation my wife is part of is this one:

http://www.new-unity.org/

(she's the one in the gif at right front with my 4-year-old daughter.)
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Unitarian, Unitarian Universalist and Unity are three different philosophies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church

In the U.S., when people say Unitarian they usually mean Unitarian Universalist. Calling a Unitarian Universalist Church "Unity" here would lead to confusion with the Unity church, which is a non-denominational Christian philosophy.
 
Bob001 said:
Unitarian, Unitarian Universalist and Unity are three different philosophies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church

In the U.S., when people say Unitarian they usually mean Unitarian Universalist. Calling a Unitarian Universalist Church "Unity" here would lead to confusion with the Unity church, which is a non-denominational Christian philosophy.
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But which one is the right one?
 
Matthew Best said:
Maybe there's a difference between the US and the UK, but here a Unitarian church is definitely not a Christian sect.

The congregation my wife is part of is this one:

http://www.new-unity.org/

(she's the one in the gif at right front with my 4-year-old daughter.)
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I don't know if any original Unitarian churches still exist in the UK, there are only a handful left in the USA. The original Christian Unitarianism (as opposed to the more popular Trinitarianism) first appeared in the 17th century I believe and was exclusively a Christian sect until the start of Unitarian Universalism in the 19th century.
 
Bob001 said:
Unitarian, Unitarian Universalist and Unity are three different philosophies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church

In the U.S., when people say Unitarian they usually mean Unitarian Universalist. Calling a Unitarian Universalist Church "Unity" here would lead to confusion with the Unity church, which is a non-denominational Christian philosophy.
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I am unsure about the difference between Unitarianism and Unitarian Universalism. The former teaches that God is one being that is not composed of multiple beings, I think. But I am not sure if the latter teaches that too, by calling itself Unitarian Universalism.

The Unitarians as a general, interconnected religious movement in the Reformation era and in pre-Industrial Europe appeared to be initially Christian in nature, but in the sense that Islam is Christian. That is, they both often considered Jesus to be Christ or Masih, but did not accepted Trinitarianism.
 
rakovsky said:
I am unsure about the difference between Unitarianism and Unitarian Universalism. The former teaches that God is one being that is not composed of multiple beings, I think.
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Correct.

rakovsky said:
But I am not sure if the latter teaches that too, by calling itself Unitarian Universalism.
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The Unitarian in the name is because UU is an evolution from Unitarian Christianity. The Universalism means it allows any belief in its congregation, basically it's the anything goes universal congregation. Every congregation will be different in its current composition but is open for all to join with any belief system a person holds. As an example a UU Church congregation I know has membership where some are Unitarian Christians, some are Trinitarian Christian, some like Buddhism mixed with Christianity, some are atheist but most are a blend of various religious beliefs.

rakovsky said:
The Unitarians as a general, interconnected religious movement in the Reformation era and in pre-Industrial Europe appeared to be initially Christian in nature, but in the sense that Islam is Christian. That is, they both often considered Jesus to be Christ or Masih, but did not accepted Trinitarianism.
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That's a major stretch, Unitarians follow the teachings of Christ, Muslims follow the teachings of Mohamed. Unitarians have much more in common with the sect I was raised in by my Minister Dad, American Baptist, than Islam. Both Unitarian Christians and American Baptists have these beliefs in common: (taken from the Wiki Unitarianism article)
  • One God and the oneness or unity of God.
  • The life and teachings of Jesus Christ constitute the exemplar model for living one's own life.
  • Reason, rational thought, science, and philosophy coexist with faith in God.
  • Humans have the ability to exercise free will in a responsible, constructive and ethical manner with the assistance of religion.
  • Human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved (see original Sin) but capable of both good and evil, as God intended.
  • No religion can claim an absolute monopoly on the Holy Spirit or theological truth.
  • Though the authors of the Bible were inspired by God, they were humans and therefore subject to human error.
  • The traditional doctrines of predestination, eternal damnation, and the vicarious sacrifice and satisfaction theories of the Atonement are invalid because they malign God's character and veil the true nature and mission of Jesus Christ.
And a few other things not in the Wiki list that they have in common.
  • Every member is encouraged to think for them self and not blindly follow anyone else's teachings.
  • The New England Liberal American Baptist churches are vanishing like the strictly Unitarian Christian churches did.
  • The New England Liberal American Baptist congregations are merging with other religious sects to stay open, just as the Unitarian Christian congregations have become UU.
    Weirdest combination I've seen is in Rhode Island, Congregationalists merged with American Baptists. Weird because it was the Congregationalists (Puritans) who persecuted the Baptists in New England which led to exiled Baptists founding Rhode Island.
 
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