Unitarian Church?

[rakovsky]

Unitarianism is my best guess when it comes to religion. I think that God, at least in some very broad or general theistic sense, exists, that believers should form a community around this belief, and that they should set out teachings about God and morality. However, I have reservations before joining a UU church and their movement.

Christianity feels colorful, diverse, and inspiring both in its philosophies, history, culture, practices and cultures. The problem is that Jesus' miracles seem more like the ideas of a fringe charismatic movement than of real phenomena.

But UU churches feel bland and empty in contrast, their national culture being that of Reformed WASP anglo-Protestants and anglo New Agers. They seem like a mix between self help classes and support groups with services in the form of Reformed Protestantism but with the message of modern, non-academic psychology. I know that there is such a thing as Unitarian studies, beliefs, and theology, but in general it just seems bland with a mix of old heretical/unrealistic interpretations of Christianity (eg. the virgin birth was real but Jesus didn't claim to be God's pre-Creation Word), polytheism, and atheism.

The approximately 15 minute promotional video I saw just seemed to be people with opposing theologies saying that they love each other, approve of people having same-sex sexual relationships, and that their movement has had some involvement in liberal causes like the Red Cross, women's voting, and African American equality. That's good and nice, but it's still bland, and I don't want to elevate political liberalism to a religious belief system. Is there a better UU video available?

I would generally qualify as leftist, but there are issues on which I disagree with leftist politics. For example, I believe in an armed citizenry, but worry that there are powerful, activist forces in the government and among liberals that want to disarm us like Europeans have been disarmed.

Besides that, I've heard strange things about Unitarian churches, particularly that they have an excessive level of sexual activity between members. In the promotional video, adolescents said that they were being taught about sex. The YRUU (UU youth group) was disowned in 2008 because of scandals in this area.

I know the large gay contingency at my UU church has become a bit of a meat market (no pun intended)- not sure if straight people are hooking up. In a way it makes sense, as many at the UU are reacting to the repressiveness of Christianity- your odds of getting laid might be better in a UU church than in lets say a lutheran church. ~Tinfoil hater
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187385&highlight=unitarian

Quakerism is very attractive culturally and ideologically. I do think that their services have a major bland element due to their unprogrammed/spontaneous music-less, frequently silent worship. The second issue is that in terms of theology it is basically a soft, accepting version of Christianity. So Quakerism actually teaches Christianity, if you are serious about theology, but you don't actually have to accept it to join and be a member, depending on your Quaker sect. And really something similar can be said about mainstream Christianity too, except in the case of adult conversion. Thirdly, Quakerism requires you to accept Pacifism, and although I sympathize with it and find it reasonable, I think that there are probably cases where people should defend their country militarily.

The other two real options I see are to go to a mainstream church with an open mind and try to get things out of it like community and morality, which is what I think some people do, and just give up religious observance even though you believe in God, which is another common response.

 

[rakovsky]

This was interesting:

This was my last sermon preached from a Unitatian Universalist
pulpit, it was delivered in 1985 or so at The First Unitarian
Universalist Church of Columbus (OH)...

The historical roots of the Unitarian Universalist Church have
produced a religion with a unique flavor. The combination of
residual Christianity and disguised Humanism found in this
denomination is to be found nowhere else. The hospitality to
atheists as well as to believers in mysticism, flying saucers,
pyramid power and all manner of foolishness is amazing.

The alliance of convenience between residual Christians and Closet
Humanists is inhibiting - to both groups. Neither theists nor
atheists may act boldly or creatively on their convictions out of
fear of offending the other. For Humanists, the result is a timid
humanism that spends more time keeping peace with the god
believers in the church than meeting their own needs as Humanists
and reaching out to other Humanists in the larger community.

The Unitarian Universalist Hymnal - a hymnal for both Protestants
and Atheists - is not a miracle; it's a disaster. This hymnal to
me is a symbol of the watered down religion so often offered in
the U-U church.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/human/ynotuudo.htm

 

[tsig]

Unitarianism is my best guess when it comes to religion. I think that God, at least in some very broad or general theistic sense, exists, that believers should form a community around this belief, and that they should set out teachings about God and morality. However, I have reservations before joining a UU church and their movement.

Christianity feels colorful, diverse, and inspiring both in its philosophies, history, culture, practices and cultures. The problem is that Jesus' miracles seem more like the ideas of a fringe charismatic movement than of real phenomena.

But UU churches feel bland and empty in contrast, their national culture being that of Reformed WASP anglo-Protestants and anglo New Agers. They seem like a mix between self help classes and support groups with services in the form of Reformed Protestantism but with the message of modern, non-academic psychology. I know that there is such a thing as Unitarian studies, beliefs, and theology, but in general it just seems bland with a mix of old heretical/unrealistic interpretations of Christianity (eg. the virgin birth was real but Jesus didn't claim to be God's pre-Creation Word), polytheism, and atheism.

The approximately 15 minute promotional video I saw just seemed to be people with opposing theologies saying that they love each other, approve of people having same-sex sexual relationships, and that their movement has had some involvement in liberal causes like the Red Cross, women's voting, and African American equality. That's good and nice, but it's still bland, and I don't want to elevate political liberalism to a religious belief system. Is there a better UU video available?

I would generally qualify as leftist, but there are issues on which I disagree with leftist politics. For example, I believe in an armed citizenry, but worry that there are powerful, activist forces in the government and among liberals that want to disarm us like Europeans have been disarmed.

Besides that, I've heard strange things about Unitarian churches, particularly that they have an excessive level of sexual activity between members. In the promotional video, adolescents said that they were being taught about sex. The YRUU (UU youth group) was disowned in 2008 because of scandals in this area.



Quakerism is very attractive culturally and ideologically. I do think that their services have a major bland element due to their unprogrammed/spontaneous music-less, frequently silent worship. The second issue is that in terms of theology it is basically a soft, accepting version of Christianity. So Quakerism actually teaches Christianity, if you are serious about theology, but you don't actually have to accept it to join and be a member, depending on your Quaker sect. And really something similar can be said about mainstream Christianity too, except in the case of adult conversion. Thirdly, Quakerism requires you to accept Pacifism, and although I sympathize with it and find it reasonable, I think that there are probably cases where people should defend their country militarily.

The other two real options I see are to go to a mainstream church with an open mind and try to get things out of it like community and morality, which is what I think some people do, and just give up religious observance even though you believe in God, which is another common response.

Be a prophet and start your own church.

Benefits:

Money

Women

Prestige

Absolute poser over a group

 

[Myriad]

In the promotional video, adolescents said that they were being taught about sex.

I hear they also have a program to teach old people about complaining about adolescents being taught about sex. So it all balances out.

 

[Trebuchet]

In the promotional video, adolescents said that they were being taught about sex.

When I was an adolescent 60 years ago, I got sent to a sex-ed class at a Baptist church. It was pretty explicit.

 

[Z]

Ahh... Baptist Sex Ed.

"Now, I'll need a volunteer from the audience... No, no, a female volunteer. What do you think we are, Catholics?"

 

[rakovsky]

When I was an adolescent 60 years ago, I got sent to a sex-ed class at a Baptist church. It was pretty explicit.

Wow. How come I never got this at my mainstream Protestant church (PCUSA) in any of the grades?

And by pretty explicit, do you mean this:

Or what?

 

[Bikewer]

We had a sex-ed class in Catholic high school around 1962 or so. As I recall, it amounted to a Monty-Python-like "These are the naughty bits of a man..."
And injunctions not to do any of that as it was a mortal sin.

We have a local Unity church which so far as we can tell is totally populated by ex--Catholics who still want some sort of "churchy" experience. One of our friends, ( a nightclub owner and belly-dancer...) actually became a minister and had her own church in Louisiana for years....As far as I can tell the church's beliefs are so diffuse that nearly anything is acceptable.

I have never felt the slightest desire to "go back to church" in any way. I don't see religion as the source for ethics and morals, but rather as the usurper of same.
The closest thing I ever found to a system that I appreciated was Taoism....Which has a lot of practical "living-your-life" advice of use to modern man.

 

[Matthew Best]

Unitarianism is my best guess when it comes to religion. I think that God, at least in some very broad or general theistic sense, exists, that believers should form a community around this belief, and that they should set out teachings about God and morality. However, I have reservations before joining a UU church and their movement.

My wife goes to a Unitarian Church, but I don't think she or many of the people who also attend believe in "God". They welcome people of all faiths and none, and it largely seems to be people of no faith. So it might not be a good fit for you.

 

[Rincewind]

My wife goes to a Unitarian Church, but I don't think she or many of the people who also attend believe in "God". They welcome people of all faiths and none, and it largely seems to be people of no faith. So it might not be a good fit for you.

Sounds more like a social club than a religion.

My mother was a Unitarian initially, but didn't discuss it much.

 

[Trebuchet]

Wow. How come I never got this at my mainstream Protestant church (PCUSA) in any of the grades?

And by pretty explicit, do you mean this:

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Blausen_0399_FemaleReproSystem_01.png/100px-Blausen_0399_FemaleReproSystem_01.png[/qimg]

Or what?

Image is too small to see, but more than that as I recall it.

 

[paulhutch]

When choosing a church don't confuse Unitarianism with Unitarian Universalism, the former is a Christian sect and included a few US presidents most notably John Adams and his son. The latter is the much more common in modern times anything goes pseudo-religion.

 

[Leumas]

We had a sex-ed class in Catholic high school around 1962 or so. As I recall, it amounted to a Monty-Python-like "These are the naughty bits of a man..."
And injunctions not to do any of that as it was a mortal sin.
...

I doubt that....see here.... also see part two... but that is a little too naughty for the skeptics at ISF... so I won't provide a link lest I get spanked.

 

[Donn]

All powerful God of all oms wanted, apply within.

Please have your Deus Ex Vitae ready, double spaced.

I am a devout penitent seeking a God worthy of veneration. The candidate should fit the categories listed. Please note, although you may be Alpha and Omega, if you do not openly carry a weapon of some kind, you are not going to be considered for the position. Arm or leg it.

The criteria. These are non-negotiable, however your tithes will be flexible.
- Your progeny should be legit miraculous, like, dog, you get props for that, hardcore, feel me like? Respect!
- Said progeny's religious movement should be totes hip and with it.
- Your House must not be bland nor should it remix tenets into heretical tracks. Keep it pure acid.
- Your words may be liberal, but mind their tone. I seek conservative sauce; titillation with less illation.
- There should be none of them squishy sex learning feels. Keep the low down on the down low.
- Your theology should be tripping. I want it straight and narrow, like my haircut.

If you feel, as a universal force, that you fit my void aching for dominance, please contact me on craigsl uh, by prayer and force yourself into my heart.

NO TRICKSTERS OR LESSER GODS OF THE VOID OR OF THE DEEP YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE YOG SOTHOTH AND NO I AM NOT RETURNING THE WHIP.

 

[Leumas]

All powerful God of all oms wanted, apply within.

Please have your Deus Ex Vitae ready, double spaced.

I am a devout penitent seeking a God worthy of veneration. The candidate should fit the categories listed. Please note, although you may be Alpha and Omega, if you do not openly carry a weapon of some kind, you are not going to be considered for the position. Arm or leg it.

The criteria. These are non-negotiable, however your tithes will be flexible.
- Your progeny should be legit miraculous, like, dog, you get props for that, hardcore, feel me like? Respect!
- Said progeny's religious movement should be totes hip and with it.
- Your House must not be bland nor should it remix tenets into heretical tracks. Keep it pure acid.
- Your words may be liberal, but mind their tone. I seek conservative sauce; titillation with less illation.
- There should be none of them squishy sex learning feels. Keep the low down on the down low.
- Your theology should be tripping. I want it straight and narrow, like my haircut.

If you feel, as a universal force, that you fit my void aching for dominance, please contact me on craigsl uh, by prayer and force yourself into my heart.

NO TRICKSTERS OR LESSER GODS OF THE VOID OR OF THE DEEP YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE YOG SOTHOTH AND NO I AM NOT RETURNING THE WHIP.

Pure gold

[imgw=150]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/209954ed90aef413f0.gif[/imgw]

 

[Loss Leader]

Try Judaism. We get the best deals on diamonds and our Shabbat services are only 3 hours long.

Best of all, our miracles suck. Abraham is going to sacrifice Isaac but instead finds a goat. A goat shows up - that's a Jewish miracle.

 

[rakovsky]

Try Judaism. We get the best deals on diamonds and our Shabbat services are only 3 hours long.

Best of all, our miracles suck. Abraham is going to sacrifice Isaac but instead finds a goat. A goat shows up - that's a Jewish miracle.

^And a sense of healthy self-humor is useful and fun. Judaism has some attractive aspects.

Unfortunately, the main rational challenge is the same one as with Christianity. If you take these religions' sacred writings and tradition as intended, then it means that God actually appeared to Moses with pillars of fire and cloud (Isn't that a cool miracle?) or that the Messiah Jesus' body transformed into a spiritual one and He appeared to people in the flesh, respectively.

 

[Leumas]

Try Judaism. We get the best deals on diamonds and our Shabbat services are only 3 hours long.

Best of all, our miracles suck. Abraham is going to sacrifice Isaac but instead finds a goat. A goat shows up - that's a Jewish miracle.

Here are a few more:

• Sarah getting pregnant at 90.
  
• The 10 plagues.
  
• Killing of all the first born of Egyptians albeit the first born Hebrews being protected by the smeared blood of sheep.
  
• The parting of the Red Sea.
  
• Water from dry rocks.
  
• Manna
  
• Looking at a statue of a snake to be cured from snake bites.
  
• The shining face of Moses.
  
• Cursing of Merriam with leprosy for starting a coup d'état against Moses.
  
• Splitting of the ground and the swallowing of the whole tribe, men women and children, of Korah for mounting a rebellion against Moses.
  
• Talking donkey of Balaam.
  
• Blowing of the Shofars to topple the walls of Jericho.
  
• Stopping of the Sun for 12 hours so that Joshua can massacre more babies and their mothers.
  
• The Ark giving hemorrhoids to the Philistines.
  
• The Ark striking dead poor Uzzah.
  
• Solomon's miraculous wisdom despite of which he still managed to worship other gods and erect temples for them right besides YHWH's.
  
• An axe's iron head floating in the river Jordan.
  
• Killer she bears who killed the kids for Elisha's sake.
  
• Consuming fire that validated Elijah as the true prophet of the true god after which he massacred 400+ priests of Baal.
  
• Elijah raising a kid from the dead.
  
• Elisha raising a kid from the dead.
  
• Elijah's flying up to be with god in heaven in a chariot driven by horses.
  
• Long dead Elisha's bones reviving a dead person buried on top of them.
  
• The striking dead of the Syrian army besieging Jerusalem.
  
• Isaiah making the Sun go backwards as a sign that Hezekiah will have his boil cured.
  
• Jonah in the big fish for three days.
  
• Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego not burning alive when put in a raging furnace of fire.
  
• Daniel in the lion's den.

There are of course many many more from outside the Tanakh, but yet taken very seriously ... e.g. the Hanukkah miracle of the menorah's oil lasting for 8 days when it was only enough for one.

 

[rakovsky]

Here are a few more:

• Sarah getting pregnant at 90.
  
• The 10 plagues.
  
• Killing of all the first born of Egyptians albeit the first born Hebrews being protected by the smeared blood of sheep.
  
• The parting of the Red Sea.
  
• Water from dry rocks.
  
• Manna
  
• Looking at a statue of a snake to be cured from snake bites.
  
• The shining face of Moses.
  
• Cursing of Merriam with leprosy for starting a coup d'état against Moses.
  
• Splitting of the ground and the swallowing of the whole tribe, men women and children, of Korah for mounting a rebellion against Moses.
  
• Talking donkey of Balaam.
  
• Blowing of the Shofars to topple the walls of Jericho.
  
• Stopping of the Sun for 12 hours so that Joshua can massacre more babies and their mothers.
  
• The Ark giving hemorrhoids to the Philistines.
  
• The Ark striking dead poor Uzzah.
  
• Solomon's miraculous wisdom despite of which he still managed to worship other gods and erect temples for them right besides that of YHWH's.
  
• An axe iron head floating in the river Jordan.
  
• Killer she bears who killed the kids for Elisha's sake.
  
• Consuming fire that validated Elijah as the true prophet of the true god after which he massacred 400+ priests of Baal.
  
• Elijah raising a kid from the dead.
  
• Elisha raising a kid from the dead.
  
• Elijah's flying up to be with god in heaven in a chariot driven by horses.
  
• Long dead Elisha's bones reviving a dead person buried on top of them.
  
• The striking dead of the Syrian army besieging Jerusalem.
  
• Isaiah making the Sun go backwards as a sign that Hezekiah will have his boil cured.
  
• Jonah in the big fish for three days.
  
• Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego not burning alive when put in a raging furnace of fire.
  
• Daniel in the lion's den.

There are of course many many more from outside the Tanakh, but yet taken very seriously ... e.g. the Hanukkah miracle of the menorah's oil lasting for 8 days when it was only enough for one.

Many religious Jews would respond that you don't have to believe these things and that they were just myths. All you have to do is follow some basic rituals under Moses' law and join the Jewish community. The problem with this response, Leumas, is that I think that the sacred Tradition of Judaism really did intend for these myths to be accepted as real.

And if one takes such a liberal approach, Loss Leader, and you don't believe in Moses' extreme miracle stories, and reduce Judaism to the First Commandment -monotheism and basic ritual rules from Moses, where do you think these rules came from? So God inspired the Israelites to implement sexually very disadvantageous male genital mutilation (I am not saying that offensively, but that's what the circumcision means), to set them apart from other nations and thus insulate their monotheism? That's a huge hit to take for Monotheism, which by now a huge chunk of the world accepts anyway, thus obviating a need for circumcision. So even if this ritual demand had major value back then in insulating monotheism, how can it be needed to insulate monotheism today? Couldn't such extreme, strict Monotheists just tattoo themselves instead, like the Copts do to block themselves from conversion to Islam? I would love to have a cool Israelite or Jewish tattoo rather than be circumcized, but it's too late now.

 

[rwguinn]

Here are a few more:

• Sarah getting pregnant at 90.
  
• The 10 plagues.
  
• Killing of all the first born of Egyptians albeit the first born Hebrews being protected by the smeared blood of sheep.
  
• The parting of the Red Sea.
  
• Water from dry rocks.
  
• Manna
  
• Looking at a statue of a snake to be cured from snake bites.
  
• The shining face of Moses.
  
• Cursing of Merriam with leprosy for starting a coup d'état against Moses.
  
• Splitting of the ground and the swallowing of the whole tribe, men women and children, of Korah for mounting a rebellion against Moses.
  
• Talking donkey of Balaam.
  
• Blowing of the Shofars to topple the walls of Jericho.
  
• Stopping of the Sun for 12 hours so that Joshua can massacre more babies and their mothers.
  
• The Ark giving hemorrhoids to the Philistines.
  
• The Ark striking dead poor Uzzah.
  
• Solomon's miraculous wisdom despite of which he still managed to worship other gods and erect temples for them right besides YHWH's.
  
• An axe iron head floating in the river Jordan.
  
• Killer she bears who killed the kids for Elisha's sake.
  
• Consuming fire that validated Elijah as the true prophet of the true god after which he massacred 400+ priests of Baal.
  
• Elijah raising a kid from the dead.
  
• Elisha raising a kid from the dead.
  
• Elijah's flying up to be with god in heaven in a chariot driven by horses.
  
• Long dead Elisha's bones reviving a dead person buried on top of them.
  
• The striking dead of the Syrian army besieging Jerusalem.
  
• Isaiah making the Sun go backwards as a sign that Hezekiah will have his boil cured.
  
• Jonah in the big fish for three days.
  
• Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego not burning alive when put in a raging furnace of fire.
  
• Daniel in the lion's den.

There are of course many many more from outside the Tanakh, but yet taken very seriously ... e.g. the Hanukkah miracle of the menorah's oil lasting for 8 days when it was only enough for one.

You forgot the bit about Balaam tying his ass to a tree and then walking 40 miles into the desert...