Unfulfilled Bible Prophecies

[This Guy]

I'm gonna go to the thread I quoted from in the OP, and reply there with a link to here.

Maybe if he doesn't respond to my post (but does respond to later post by others) someone else could make a mention of this thread there, for me.

Thanks for the attempts!

 

[Ladewig]

The problem here is that the future is so damn open-ended. A prophecy which has not been fulfilled may just be biding its time.

But what about prophecies with stated deadlines? Matt 23:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

 

[plumjam]

This thread is taking on the appearance of some guys planning an ambush

 

[This Guy]

But what about prophecies with stated deadlines? Matt 23:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

You didn't see that news report about those old apostles they found wondering around the Mid-East did you?

Saving that one for later

I want to tie it in with Paul's writings, and the apparent shift from his "the end is near" stance to a more "well, the end will come!" stance.

There are a lot of unfulfilled ones to pick from. The ones I have in mind are quite well defined, and quite easy (IMHO) to see that the prophecies failed to be fulfilled. I could have made a list at the start, but I really want to try the one at a time thing first. My hope is it will keep the discussion more focused and easier for everyone, that is interested, to follow.

 

[Wauthan]

This thread is taking on the appearance of some guys planning an ambush

I agree with Plumjam. Reading through the thread gives a sort of creepy impression. If the OP want good answers you might need to provide a more welcoming atmosphere.

 

[I Ratant]

This thread is taking on the appearance of some guys planning an ambush

.
I bet there's more than one of these here!
Looking at the lack of rigorous application between prediction and event for good Old Nostry.. I'd hope any prophecy noted here will have a clear origin -before- the event, not after.
With 1,430,000 hits on "biblical prophecy", and the first pages full of ... how "accurate" these have been, there's no much hope.

 

[plumjam]

As a theist I'm just wondering when it gets to be our turn to give the atheist his multiple-wedgie from behind

 

[Frozenwolf150]

In case any of these come up again, there was this thread started by DOC back in January about The Incredible odds of fulfilled bible prophecy.

Three guesses who lost that one, and the first two don't count.

 

[This Guy]

I agree with Plumjam. Reading through the thread gives a sort of creepy impression. If the OP want good answers you might need to provide a more welcoming atmosphere.

My opening statement remains true! I intend to conduct the debate on the topic as politely as possible. The prophecies will come directly from the Bible (King James version for the most part). I have no tricks up my sleeve.

The fact is that the Bible does have clear prophecies in it. It is my opinion that many of these prophecies failed. I will only present information from the Bible, in most cases, to back up my claims, though there is at least a few that deal with things that history or current events provide the basis of my opinion on un-fulfillment.

I do hope that one or more theist will provide counter claims to my opinions. But if I felt there were clear easy counter claims available, I wouldn't have started the thread. I don't think I can be accused of setting an "Ambush" just because I have a list (in mind) of perceived problems that I will offer, from the Bible, for the theist to defend.

It has been claimed that the Bible differs from other Holy books in that it has fulfilled prophecies. I claim it also has unfulfilled prophecies. I simply want to discuss the issue and see if my claims hold water.

 

[This Guy]

As a theist I'm just wondering when it gets to be our turn to give the atheist his multiple-wedgie from behind

Bring it on!

Perhaps a counter thread, one that discusses fulfilled prophecies would be in order?

I'm always willing to learn more about the Bible. I have studied it, though not nearly as much as some. I have come to the conclusion that it is not the Divine work of any God, let alone the one it was written to explain. If my conclusion is wrong, I want to know that!

I personally invite any theist to backup the contention that the Bible is what it is billed to be (by those that take it as a valid explanation of God, and how we got here, and all that stuff).

And I promise to try and be nice

 

[edge]

7Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

8And they remembered his words,

13And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

Each persons account is slightly different than the other eyewitness the overall truth is they had to go see him somewhere else later on that day or evening.
It, the Time line depends on how far threescore furlongs is. How long of a journey?
No one really sees him till later, how much later?

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48And ye are witnesses of these things.
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

He walks out of the grave defeats death, and carried up to heaven.
So later he assends to the Father, carried up to heaven?

I forgot, Why would I be worried about a simple, small, insignificant, detail as you mentioned?

 

[arthwollipot]

 

[This Guy]

Each persons account is slightly different than the other eyewitness the overall truth is they had to go see him somewhere else later on that day or evening.
It, the Time line depends on how far threescore furlongs is. How long of a journey?
No one really sees him till later, how much later?




He walks out of the grave defeats death, and carried up to heaven.
So later he assends to the Father, carried up to heaven?

I forgot, Why would I be worried about a simple, small, insignificant, detail as you mentioned?

It would be nicer if you gave a full reference, and preferably a link to your quoted passages. Please see the OP for a friendlier example

Would you mind explaining what your passages have to do with whether or not Jesus spoke the truth when he said he would be in the ground three days and three nights?

Or are you saying that the fact that he was wrong is not important?

I really don't understand the point of your post, and am simply asking for clarification.

Thanks for the input!

ETA: OK, I looked up your references.

First: Luke 24

This takes place after the resurrection, and as far as I can tell has no bearing on the prophecy made by Jesus. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Second: Also Luke 24 (above link) but later on. I still see no relevance to the prophecy made by Jesus. Again, please explain what I'm missing.

Thanks.

 

[Ladewig]

So later he assends to the Father, carried up to heaven?

You need a spellchecker more than anyone I have ever met.

 

[edge]

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

No one sees him till later on that evening.
What you refer to (Jonah 1:17) is from the Old Testament.
It’s what Christ says about it and that is what they, (the disciples), are going by, on the third day.
But there is evidence that they do not see him till later and who they seen at the tomb were angels.
Clear enough?

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

I'd always thought that the Last Supper would have been on Wednesday, before the Passover, because the word used for bread is ἄρτος (artos, meaning loaf, from αἴρω [airoh] to rise up, to carry what's raised, to bear away) instead of bread as ἄζυμος (azymos, meaning bread without leavening), indicating that the feast was not yet in progress. Also, the people who seek to capture Jesus say that the capture shouldn't be on the feast day for fear of agitating the people. (Around Matthew 26, 6)

Having a Passover Sabbath, then a weekly Sabbath (Sabbath meaning enforced rest) would not be too unusual as the start of the week-long festival of the Passover is a set date, and not a, "second weekend in Nisan," kind of thing.

[eta] On the decade-long calender provided, a Thursday Pesach occurs 60% of the time, and never on a Friday. [/eta]

That would line up with all the buying and preparation of ointments and spices on the day before the weekly Sabbath, then a timely application to the corpse on Sunday morning, giving Thursday night, Friday day and night Saturday day and night, then Sunday morning as the third day after the third night.

On the other hand, I hadn't thought much about it, until you asked. Thanks for an interesting question.

There's an interesting (well - to me, anyhow) discussion of the pros and cons of the event being on a Wednesday, Thursday or Friday at Doig's Biblical Chronology.

...and a well thought out and supported page for a Friday crucifixion, as well.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It has been claimed that the Bible differs from other Holy books in that it has fulfilled prophecies. I claim it also has unfulfilled prophecies. I simply want to discuss the issue and see if my claims hold water.

I was under the impression that the "fulfilled prophecies" had to do with OT prophecies being fulfilled in some OT and NT events.

Beyond that, not interested in wrangling over prohpecy, given that Jesus did point out that when He comes back, it will be like a thief in the night, or if you'd prefer that in the vernacular, it will be an arrival that catches people by surprise.

If you don't think Jesus likes to pull a "gotcha" now and again, see Luke 24:

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

-- skip a bit, brother--

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight

I have always imagined that just before He vanished, He winked at Cleopas (gotcha!) but the Scriptures do not tell it that way.

DR

 

[This Guy]

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

No one sees him till later on that evening.
What you refer to (Jonah 1:17) is from the Old Testament.
It’s what Christ says about it and that is what they, (the disciples), are going by, on the third day.
But there is evidence that they do not see him till later and who they seen at the tomb were angels.
Clear enough?

Not really.

Are you claiming Jesus didn't say he would be buried three days and three nights? That the disciples assumed it would be three days and three nights?

If so, how do you account for:

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This was Jesus speaking. He said three days and three nights.

I listed the Jonah verse to show that the Bible states that Jonah was in the fish for three days and three nights. That was just as a convenience, so no one would have to dig that out to see what was actually said about Jonah.

In both cases the words used are three days and three nights.

Jesus said "so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". (See the OP for the link to the full chapter)

Well, whom saw what, when, at the tomb would be food for another thread.

But I believe all Gospel accounts agree on one thing: Jesus was not in the tomb when the Marys and whomever else got there early Sunday (first day of the week). So regardless when or where Jesus was seen later, by whomever, he was out of the earth early Sunday morning (while it was still dark, as the sun was rising, or whenever, around sun up on Sunday morning).

Again, I don't see an answer to the question in the OP.

Was Jesus correct about three days and three nights in the earth, or not? I say not. Please explain how he was correct, if you feel he was.

Thanks.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Each persons account is slightly different than the other eyewitness the overall truth is they had to go see him somewhere else later on that day or evening.
It, the Time line depends on how far threescore furlongs is. How long of a journey?
No one really sees him till later, how much later?




He walks out of the grave defeats death, and carried up to heaven.
So later he assends to the Father, carried up to heaven?

I forgot, Why would I be worried about a simple, small, insignificant, detail as you mentioned?

"Assends" are located about a torso and a neck below asshats,

or

a donkey's torso and a donkey's neck behind asshats.

"Ascends" is a verb meaning "goes up or rises."

DR

 

[This Guy]

Hi

I'd always thought that the Last Supper would have been on Wednesday, before the Passover, because the word used for bread is ἄρτος (artos, meaning loaf, from αἴρω [airoh] to rise up, to carry what's raised, to bear away) instead of bread as ἄζυμος (azymos, meaning bread without leavening), indicating that the feast was not yet in progress. Also, the people who seek to capture Jesus say that the capture shouldn't be on the feast day for fear of agitating the people. (Around Matthew 26, 6)

Having a Passover Sabbath, then a weekly Sabbath (Sabbath meaning enforced rest) would not be too unusual as the start of the week-long festival of the Passover is a set date, and not a, "second weekend in Nisan," kind of thing.

[eta] On the decade-long calender provided, a Thursday Pesach occurs 60% of the time, and never on a Friday. [/eta]

That would line up with all the buying and preparation of ointments and spices on the day before the weekly Sabbath, then a timely application to the corpse on Sunday morning, giving Thursday night, Friday day and night Saturday day and night, then Sunday morning as the third day after the third night.

On the other hand, I hadn't thought much about it, until you asked. Thanks for an interesting question.

There's an interesting (well - to me, anyhow) discussion of the pros and cons of the event being on a Wednesday, Thursday or Friday at Doig's Biblical Chronology.

...and a well thought out and supported page for a Friday crucifixion, as well.

I once ran across something about this possibility (while following links on something else). At the time I didn't look into it. Now might be a good time

Thanks for the info and the links

ETA: I did a rather quick check of the Weds, Thurs or Fri link. I believe it was a Friday crucifixion. It just makes more sense when everything is taken in context (IMHO). I think that link agrees with my opinion, overall. Obviously it would be beneficial for Christians to be able to claim a Wednesday or Thursday event, but I just don't see it.

Thanks again for the links!