Unemployment falls below 9%

... It is a huge relative change.

Which costs me around $10 a day.

If that's what it takes to keep the roads fixed and the state police running and the courts going and schools open and water and sewage running and etc, a price I am quite willing to pay.

Personally, I think people who make as much as I do should pay a higher rate.
 
[ . . . ] this tax increase canceled oult Obama's payroll tax reduction. Illinois workers didn't see any benfit from the payroll tax reduction.
That's kind of my point: the payroll tax cut is always reported in everything I see as "2%". Not whatever it was as a % of the previous tax rate.
 
Which costs me around $10 a day.

If that's what it takes to keep the roads fixed and the state police running and the courts going and schools open and water and sewage running and etc, a price I am quite willing to pay.
The tax hike was specifically to make pension payments, and that is where 100% of it went. And still the unfunded pension liability grows.
 
Because we needed to have me paying around $18 a day instead of around $10 a day. That would cover it.

Nothing is stopping you from paying $18 per day.

Oh, but what you really meant is you want other people to pay more.
 
Because we needed to have me paying around $18 a day instead of around $10 a day. That would cover it.
That wouldn't even make a dent in it, as you were shown in the Illinois Pensions thread.

Which is probably where this conversation needs to go... :boxedin:
 
That wouldn't even make a dent in it, as you were shown in the Illinois Pensions thread.

Which is probably where this conversation needs to go... :boxedin:
I was just going to suggest that it go to the IllinoisPolitics sub forum.

Daredelvis
 
Nothing is stopping you from paying $18 per day.

.

Can we just assume that you are going to make this silly point anytime someone suggest that a tax rate that would impact themselves be increased? How about if all of the GOP leadership that insists that they want to lower taxes on the wealthiest solely to stimulate job growth, forgo the reduction themselves?? Additionally, they should not allow it to apply to their campaign contributors. That would make a point about taxes and economic stimulation!!

We can all do the math about what an additional $8 a day from Ben would do.

Daredelvis
 
Can we just assume that you are going to make this silly point anytime someone suggest that a tax rate that would impact themselves be increased?

When they claim that they should be taxed more, then yes. All I'm demanding is honesty. If you think someone else should pay more taxes, then say so. I haven't suggested that there's anything necessarily wrong with that position, but be honest that this is the position you're taking.
 
When they claim that they should be taxed more, then yes. All I'm demanding is honesty. If you think someone else should pay more taxes, then say so. I haven't suggested that there's anything necessarily wrong with that position, but be honest that this is the position you're taking.

Be honest, that is clearly implied. This line of argument is pedantic.

Daredelvis
 
Bumping this thread on the news that the economy gained 243,000 jobs in January, and the unemployment rate fell to 8.3%. Even if recovery is slow, but stays on the positive side, I don't see how the GOP has much of a chance.

I do.

Yes, I understand that the unemployment rate most often reported doesn't measure all types of unemployment, but it's the number we generally use, and it's the one that will matter for the election in November.

Don't be so sure of that. The labor participation rate remains in the toilet. People know that it's hard to get a job if you're unemployed. And you know who has been, and still is, hurting the most? Younger workers:

Labor%20Force%20Part%20Rate.jpg


Labor participation isn't dropping because of the retirement of baby boomers. In fact, they seem to be not retiring, even though they're getting older. It's the young who are losing out here. The same group which formed a core constituency for Obama's 2008 victory. Will they turn out form him in 2012? Probably not like last time. People get their information from more sources than just one statistic in the news. If they have a hard time getting a job, if their friends have a hard time getting a job, then for them the economy sucks, regardless of what the statistics say.
 
I'm not very impressed by a chart that has no zero values and then superimposes two different scales. Rather than communicating the data effectively and accurately, it is clearly something designed to make a point.

And again, if the numbers that we have traditionally used to report unemployment continue to drop (even if very slowly), I think Obama is in a very strong position.

ETA: The chart makes it look like "labor participation" in younger workers has fallen below that of workers 55 and over. In fact, closer examination shows that the figure for younger workers has dropped from about 80% to about 75.x%, a figure still substantially higher than the figure for older workers (which has risen from around 32.x% to 40.x%). And since it's tracking a change over a 10 year period, I doubt very much it's what explains the last 5 months of successive decreases in the national unemployment figure.

ETA: By the way, thank you for referring to me as a "younger worker". I should probably return my AARP membership card!

ETA (again--sorry to keep adding things): The slight drop (80% to 75.x% over 10 years) in labor participation among the "younger" group might be in part due to increased educational opportunities. That is, more people might be going to school and not working. The modest change among older people might be due in part to improved healthcare outcomes and better longevity--fewer people are retiring because they're still fit and able to work. Could also be that fewer people are disabled by injuries and diseases in that demographic compared to 10 years ago. At any rate, I doubt very much this confusing chart will sway as many voters as the news that was released today. (The stock market even reflected optimism from the good news.)
 
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I just read that the DOW hit a 4 year high and NASDAQ hit an 11 year high today.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/03/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm

I think this also cuts in Obama's favor.

At the very least, it argues against the idea that what's wrong with the economy is regulations and capital gains taxes at such a high level that investment is discouraged. It argues against the idea that we need to do something to help investors in hopes that the largess will trickle down.
 
Don't be so sure of that. The labor participation rate remains in the toilet. People know that it's hard to get a job if you're unemployed. And you know who has been, and still is, hurting the most? Younger workers:

[qimg]http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/01/Labor%20Force%20Part%20Rate.jpg[/qimg]


I'm afraid your chart is not as clear on that point as you seem to think. Note the red line in the chart. What age group does it represent? According to its label 16-54. That seems like an awfully big age range to me, many of whom could easily be considered 'older' workers (e.g. 45-54).

Your claim of 'younger' workers being the most impacted would carry much more weight if your chart showed, for example, an age range of 16-25.
 
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I'm not very impressed by a chart that has no zero values and then superimposes two different scales.

What, you can't figure out what's going on without that?

Labor force participation for older workers is flat. The recession hasn't dropped their rate at all, the worst it's done is slow its increase. The drop in labor force participation rate has come from workers below 55. This puts a lie to the argument I've seen that the drop may be due to retirement of baby boomers. Given that the trend line continued to decrease through 2011, it also indicates that the dropping unemployment rate isn't actually indicative of a turnaround in the employment picture.

Rather than communicating the data effectively and accurately, it is clearly something designed to make a point.

And? You can't figure out whether or not that point is correct?

ETA: The chart makes it look like "labor participation" in younger workers has fallen below that of workers 55 and over.

Only if you don't know how to read a graph.

In fact, closer examination shows that the figure for younger workers has dropped from about 80% to about 75.x%, a figure still substantially higher than the figure for older workers (which has risen from around 32.x% to 40.x%).

That had better be the case, unless all our retirees start dying of really quickly.

And since it's tracking a change over a 10 year period, I doubt very much it's what explains the last 5 months of successive decreases in the national unemployment figure.

Of course it doesn't explain it. An understanding of what the unemployment statistic, along with the labor participation rate, explains that: many people are becoming discouraged and are no longer even seeking employment. They have no job, but they don't count as unemployed.

ETA (again--sorry to keep adding things): The slight drop (80% to 75.x% over 10 years) in labor participation among the "younger" group might be in part due to increased educational opportunities. That is, more people might be going to school and not working.

Yeah, I don't think so. The drops correspond to recessions. That's not a coincidence.

The modest change among older people might be due in part to improved healthcare outcomes and better longevity

I don't doubt that. But that's not the point. The point is that they aren't the demographic that's hurting the most because of the recession, at least on the employment front.

At any rate, I doubt very much this confusing chart will sway as many voters as the news that was released today.

If you're going to try to make the argument that voters are ignorant and easily swayed, well, under that logic today's news won't matter either, the unemployment number at the time of the election is what will make the difference.

But neither the press nor the government have the credibility that they once had. I don't think the official unemployment statistic will matter as much as you think it will matter, whatever it turns out to be.
 
Your claim of 'younger' workers being the most impacted would carry much more weight if your chart showed, for example, an age range of 16-25.

Yes, it would. But this is what I had immediately available. And given these completely diverging directions in the trend line, where do you think the difference mostly comes from? Workers who are closer to 55? Or workers who are farther away from 55? Because it would be rather shocking if the 16-25 set showed stable labor participation rates and, say, the 35-45 age group took the big hit.
 

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