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Understanding the Conservative Mindset

that is to say, yes he's far more blatant than his predecessors in that he's issuing pardons to white collar criminals in exchange for money
 
d4m10n said:
I don't think there is much evidence for the proposition that conservatives take white collar crime less seriously than other people do.

It's been awhile since anyone systematically studied this question in a way that allows for regional comparisons, but here is what I could find:

Residents of the New England states were the most lenient in sentencing. In contrast, residents of the two South Central regions, from Texas and Oklahoma on the west and Alabama, Kentucky and Tennessee on the east, gave almost consistently longer sentences to offenders of all kinds.​

See table 10.2 for the breakout by crime types; South Central regions are still tougher on business management crimes such as embezzlement and fraud.
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Thanks. I've seen a few survey types but didnt do a deep dive to see if the question phrasing really match the reported outcome.


dirtywick said:
that is to say, yes he's far more blatant than his predecessors in that he's issuing pardons to white collar criminals in exchange for money
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Yes, as in I didnt research into it. Let's not act like Marc Rich didnt happen and its unprecedented. But pushing the envelope and teetering on the line of legality to enrich himself is par for the course for Trump. An outlier in the worst way.
 
rdwight said:
Yes, as in I didnt research into it. Let's not act like Marc Rich didnt happen and its unprecedented. But pushing the envelope and teetering on the line of legality to enrich himself is par for the course for Trump. An outlier in the worst way.
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see the thing is, you asked for evidence that conservatives don't care about white collar crime. there it is, the republican president taking bribes and pardoning white collar criminals, committing white collar crime himself in the process. and we could go on with some other white collar crimes he's committed too if you want, but i don't see a need. and you don't seem to care that much either, not even enough to look into it. so that's interesting, isn't it?
 
dirtywick said:
see the thing is, you asked for evidence that conservatives don't care about white collar crime. there it is, the republican president taking bribes and pardoning white collar criminals, committing white collar crime himself in the process. and we could go on with some other white collar crimes he's committed too if you want, but i don't see a need. and you don't seem to care that much either, not even enough to look into it. so that's interesting, isn't it?
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I mean, you could call it a data point but it doesnt really override other evidence does it? clinton won with credible rape/sexual assualt allegations and his support remained high, doesnt mean democrats dont care about those things.
 
rdwight said:
clinton won with credible rape/sexual assualt allegations and his support remained high
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IIRC his supporters went to the mats to make those allegations seem less credible, just as Biden's supporters did almost three decades years later.

ETA: Whoops this isn't the liberal mindset thread... :unsure:
 
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rdwight said:
I mean, you could call it a data point but it doesnt really override other evidence does it? clinton won with credible rape/sexual assualt allegations and his support remained high, doesnt mean democrats dont care about those things.
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first of all, i asked you your thoughts on the topic. you haven’t provided any besides being both unaware of it and now disinterested

in any case, what evidence do you think i’m overriding? and since you won’t accept this as evidence, instead of going further, what evidence would you accept?
 
rdwight said:
I mean, you could call it a data point but it doesnt really override other evidence does it? clinton won with credible rape/sexual assualt allegations and his support remained high, doesnt mean democrats dont care about those things.
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Clinton was not on record bragging about sexually assaulting women either. But there is nothing wrong with rich men sexually assaulting women, it is the perogative of the Alpha.
 
Remember conservatives are very much pro fraud and bribery, be it supreme court justices taking in 20 million from people with cases before them to electing people behind billion dollar medicade fraud. Really a con man is the ideal conservative leader.
 
dirtywick said:
first of all, i asked you your thoughts on the topic. you haven’t provided any besides being both unaware of it and now disinterested

in any case, what evidence do you think i’m overriding? and since you won’t accept this as evidence, instead of going further, what evidence would you accept?
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I gave my opinion. Whether you find it sufficient for whatever gotcha you are attempting is irrelevant to me.

The affirmative claim was made that conservatives dont care about white collar crime. So evidence that supports that position? Surveys continuously show conservatives viewing criminals being treated too leniently. If you think there is a distinction by crime types, id like that shown.
 
rdwight said:
I gave my opinion. Whether you find it sufficient for whatever gotcha you are attempting is irrelevant to me.
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saying you didn't research something isn't giving an opinion on it.

rdwight said:
The affirmative claim was made that conservatives dont care about white collar crime. So evidence that supports that position? Surveys continuously show conservatives viewing criminals being treated too leniently. If you think there is a distinction by crime types, id like that shown.
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the evidence is they elected a criminal president that routinely commits white collar crimes. the conservative leadership in the legislature and oversight committees routinely shield him from accountability, and conservative media refused to report on or discuss it. but, you want a survey?
 
Trausti said:
Wut?

DOJ Criminal Division Updates (Part 1): DOJ’s New White Collar Crime Enforcement Plan
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i'm sure that's a really cool plan they have. i wonder when they get around to investigating defrauding investors if they'll look into world liberty financial, trump's meme coin pump and dump, or melania's meme coin? did todd blanche approve that? he's a stand up guy lol

anyway, can't imagine you'll give your thoughts on trump's selling pardons? or any of the white collar crimes he's committed while in office? or why that's tolerated by republican legislators and republican led oversight committees? does the news you consume report on it at all?

or we just going to stick to these cool plans they got brewing
 
dirtywick said:
anyway, can't imagine you'll give your thoughts on trump's selling pardons?
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I tried to look this up. Couldn't find anything. If you actually have evidence of a quid pro quo, please post it. I'd be very much against it. At this point, he's no different than any of his predecessors in granting questionable pardons.
 
Trausti said:
I tried to look this up. Couldn't find anything. If you actually have evidence of a quid pro quo, please post it. I'd be very much against it. At this point, he's no different than any of his predecessors in granting questionable pardons.
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well that's ridiculous to say that you couldn't find anything. also a ridiculous statement to say he's no different than his predecessors in granting questionable pardons.

www.pbs.org

Trump pardons Binance founder Changpeng Zhao

Zhao served prison time after failing to stop criminals from using the platform to move money connected to child sex abuse, drug trafficking and terrorism.
www.pbs.org www.pbs.org


trump's pardon of cheng peng zhao is the most obvious
 
dirtywick said:
well that's ridiculous to say that you couldn't find anything. also a ridiculous statement to say he's no different than his predecessors in granting questionable pardons.

www.pbs.org

Trump pardons Binance founder Changpeng Zhao

Zhao served prison time after failing to stop criminals from using the platform to move money connected to child sex abuse, drug trafficking and terrorism.
www.pbs.org www.pbs.org


trump's pardon of cheng peng zhao is the most obvious
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Where's the quid pro quo?
 
www.justice.gov

Clemency Grants by President Donald J. Trump (2025-Present)

www.justice.gov www.justice.gov

here's a list of trump pardons, the word fraud appears in 39 different entries.


cato institute categorizes trump's fraud into 5 categories, which is interesting but pretty long and i'm sure you won't read it.

First: Biden’s pardons eliminated roughly $680,000 in financial penalties (fines, restitution, and forfeitures) owed to victims or the government. In contrast, Liz Oyer, the former lead pardon attorney of the United States, has calculated that Trump’s second-term pardons have forgiven criminal debts of more than $1.5 billion. This staggering sum—composed of money owed to crime victims and to government treasuries—has been zeroed out by presidential edict.
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Trump’s pardon pen was a boon to ex-criminals like Trevor Milton (who no longer must repay the investors he defrauded $660 million) and Lawrence Duran (who no longer must repay the government he defrauded $87 million). It was also a boon to HDR Global Trading Ltd., which owed the nation a $100 million fine; in this case, Trump also made history by granting the nation’s very first pardon to a corporation.
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his pardons have denied $1.5b in victim restitution


Third: Trump’s pardons are beginning to undermine the contemporaneous work of his own Department of Justice. Alina Habba, Trump’s own US attorney in New Jersey, announced Joseph Schwartz’s three-year sentence for $38 million in tax fraud in April; Trump pardoned him seven months later. Real estate developer Timothy Leiweke was charged earlier this year with conspiring to rig the bidding process for a Texas sports arena; Trump pardoned him in December. Federal investigators and prosecutors must find such pardons demoralizing and self-negating.
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third entry is also pretty interesting in that he's undermining his own justice department's convictions on white collar crime. bizarre



if you guys want to get into some of the white collar crimes he's committed himself, we could do that too but that's a long ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ list. like, you can elect a criminal president, allow him to commit a bunch of white collar crimes, the entire conservative appartus looks the other way or plays interference for him, and then the doj releases a memo that says "we're going to go after white collar crime" and call it square, idk man. idk about that.
 
oh i forgot part 4, the most interesting part

Fourth: Several features of Trump’s pardons set off alarm bells for self-corruption—either of the president or of his associates. For instance, the ordinary vetting procedures of the Office of the Pardon Attorney have often been sidestepped. Formality in pardon deliberation is desirable because it immunizes the president from the appearance of pay-to-play; the absence of such formality makes it plausible that a multitude of recent pardons are transactional. Trump pardoned Paul Walczak (who evaded millions of dollars in taxes) after Walczak’s mother raised millions of dollars for MAGA candidates and paid a million dollars to dine with the president at Mar-a-Lago. Trevor Milton—the securities fraudster mentioned above—donated $1.8 million to Trump’s campaign before a presidential pardon wiped out all $660 million of his restitution obligations. (That is, if nothing else, an impressive ROI.)
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damn

so there's some evidence, right? do we care?
 
dirtywick said:
oh i forgot part 4, the most interesting part



damn

so there's some evidence, right? do we care?
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All you are showing is that those who are close to power are more likely to get pardons. Like this. Whether you're Clinton's brother, Biden's son, or Trump's business partner, it's all good. You've still haven't shown a quid pro quo. But all of this is very OT for the thread.
 
dirtywick said:
saying you didn't research something isn't giving an opinion on it.



the evidence is they elected a criminal president that routinely commits white collar crimes. the conservative leadership in the legislature and oversight committees routinely shield him from accountability, and conservative media refused to report on or discuss it. but, you want a survey?
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And if this thread was about Trump or his pardons you'd have some semblance of a point.

As I said earlier, if we are going to play the "you dont care about X if you voted for that candidate that was alleged to have done X" game, especially if we start including pardons/clemency for X, it doesnt look good for either party. And really doesnt say much about the electorate.
 
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