Understanding homeopathy

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

It appears that all a "classical" homeopath does as far as "diagnosis" goes is to take a detailed report of the patient's own ramblings about how they feel that day, and try to find a "remedy" based on that.

In the U.S. they are not allowed to examine patients so must depend just on the patient's witterings. Of coure if a real doctor has seen the patient there may be medical reports, but, without prior involvement of a real doctor, if the feelings of tiredenss and breathlessness were associated with a massively leaky heart valve they would be in no position to know.

Funny thing is that they claim to be able to cure everybody taht turns up at their door, so there is no get out clause for that for a lack of physical examination.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

"Never" is a very long time. How do you distinguish between a relapse and a new incidence of the same disease? I have probably had about 40 colds in my life, so far. Is that one disease, or 40

Nope, it's just that you've never shaken off your syphilitic miasm because you have failed to see a homeopath.

 

[bigred]

No, you posted for everyone to see. You have no idea when you are saying something really funny, do you.

Always nice to have trolls around.



I'm pretty much in agreement w/most of the skeptics here, but do us a favor and either discuss the topic or spit on some other kids in another sandbox already, k?

 

[bigred]

I will answer Kumar's query regarding disease and cure as these are already covered.

Disease is dis-ease.Anything which makes the patient uneasy is disease.

I haven't read every post, but so far am surprised someone didn't pick this off right away. This is obviously wrong, and making a play on words doesn't change that. Based on that logic, if I have a kink in my shoulder, I have a disease.

 

[patnray]

And you don't have a disease if you don't feel any discomfort...

Hold on Gavin. You haven't answered my question about the meaning of the first postulate:

Do you agree that in the first postulate Hahnemann is not denouncing research into the true causes of disease?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Based on that logic, if I have a kink in my shoulder, I have a disease.

The awful thing is that they would say you are correct in that statement.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Always nice to have trolls around.



I'm pretty much in agreement w/most of the skeptics here, but do us a favor and either discuss the topic or spit on some other kids in another sandbox already, k?

Well, part of the story is that Murthy in this thread sait that he was really just playing for the audience, and once ralizong that the audience was not the thousands he thought might not find it worthy of his time to continue. In other words, this is not a real debate as far as he is concerned, we are just extras while he makes propaganda for homeopathy.

In that light, a bit of spitting might be appropriate, after all...

Hans

 

[patnray]

Disease
It is the abnormally altered state of life characterized by a sensation of uneasiness and discomfort due to the dynamic derangement of the vital force. In Sec. 11 Hahnemann defines disease as an abnormally altered state of health in which the self-acting (automatic) vital force is primarily dynamically deranged by the morbific dynamic influence inimical to life, subsequently causing disagreeable sensations and irregular functions which are exfoliated outwardly through the material body as the morbid signs and symptoms, the totality of which constitutes the disease.

Health
It is the normal condition of life characterized by a sensation of ease (well-being) and comfort due to the harmonious playing of the vital force.It is a stage of optimal physical,mental and social well being and not merely the absence of disease.According to aphorism 9 of the Organon,health is a condition in which the spiritual vital force 'rules with unbounded sway,and retains all the parts of the organism in admirable harmonious,vital operation,as regards both sensations and functions.'

Before this definition can be accepted you have to prove the existence of the "vital force" AND show that it plays a role in disease or health. I do not want to derail this thread with a discussion of this point. Just note that these are not scientific definitions, they are EMPTY SPECULATIONS

 

[Kumar]

Before this definition can be accepted you have to prove the existence of the "vital force" AND show that it plays a role in disease or health. I do not want to derail this thread with a discussion of this point. Just note that these are not scientific definitions, they are EMPTY SPECULATIONS

We have energy which control our activities. I also want to know, what form of energy/energies is there in us which is controling us & our activities.

These definitions are in homeopathic sense.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

We have energy which control our activities. I also want to know, what form of energy/energies is there in us which is controling us & our activities.

These definitions are in homeopathic sense.

i.e. they are b*ll*cks.

 

[Chris Haynes]

From http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/51.html

? 206 Sixth Edition

Before commencing the treatment of a chronic disease, it is necessary to make the most careful investigation1 as to whether the patient has had a venereal infection (or an infection with condylomatous gonorrhoea); for then the treatment must be directed towards this alone, when only the signs of syphilis (or of the rarer condylomatous disease) are present, but this disease is very seldom met with alone nowadays. If such infection have previously occurred, this must also be borne in mind in the treatment of those cases in which psora is present, because in them the latter is complicated with the former, as is always the case when the symptoms are not those of pure syphilis; for when the physician thinks he has a case of old venereal disease before him, he has always, or almost always, to treat a syphilitic affection accompanied mostly by (complicated with) psora, for the internal itch dyscrasia (the psora) is far the most frequent fundamental cause of chronic diseases . At times, both miasms may be complicated also with sycosis in chronically diseased organisms, or, as is much more frequently the case, psora is the sole fundamental cause of all other chronic maladies, whatever names they may bear, which are, moreover, so often bungled, increased and disfigured to a monstrous extent by allopathic unskillfulness.

1 In investigations of this nature we must not allow ourselves to be deceived by the assertions of the patients of their friends, who frequently assign as the cause of chronic, even of the severest and most inveterate diseases, either a cold caught (a thorough wetting, drinking cold water after being heated) many years ago, or a former fright, a sprain, a vexation (sometimes even a bewitchment ), etc. These causes are much too insignificant to develop a chronic disease in a healthy body, to keep it up for years, and to aggravate it year by year, as is the case with all chronic diseases from developed psora. Causes of a much more important character than those remembered noxious influences must lie at the root of the initiation and progress of a serious, obstinate disease of long standing; the assigned causes could only rouse into activity the latent chronic miasm.

Here we have the confusion of venereal diseases... not seperating them as seperate problems. With the ITCH associated with being the actual cause.

Considering that the field of microbiology had not progressed far enought then to distinquish the gonorrhea bacteria from the syphilis bacteria -- it is understandable. But internal itching can ALSO be from yeast infections... which are completely different, and not at all the cause of syphilis or gonorrhea.

Real medicine has progressed in the past two centuries to find actual cures for gonorrhea, syphilis... and thankfully an over the counter medication for yeast infections.

What is interesting was the footnoot about the causes for colds (which we now know is a virus... and it is a self-limiting condition), and the note on BEWITCHMENT.

(sorry, my thought processes are not at full form, well, because, cough cough... I have a cold!)

 

[JAK]

...
Real medicine has progressed in the past two centuries to find actual cures for gonorrhea, syphilis... and thankfully an over the counter medication for yeast infections.
...

This sums up my feelings, too. The original Organon was written in 1810. Since then, the expansion of knowledge has been tremendous. To fight for homeopathy with an 1810 text begs for criticism. Worse, if homeopathy DOES have a measure of benefit, then this archaic presentation fails homeopathy as well.

A recent article in Discover magazine touts a 2004 study showing broccoli as suppressing cell replication which is symptomatic of cancer. (The American Cancer Society has broadcast the benefits of fresh fruits and vegetables for the last 20 years or more.) Recent research in cellular communication and glycosylation is a harbinger of renewed interest in natural foods to help overcome chronic disease.

Is there no champion for homeopathy with recent data and expertise??

 

[patnray]

We have energy which control our activities. I also want to know, what form of energy/energies is there in us which is controling us & our activities.

These definitions are in homeopathic sense.

Empty speculation. Where is the proof there is such an energy? Where is the proof that such an energy plays any part in disease or health? Unless you can prove this energy exists, you are violating Hahnemann's first postulate. And you are practicing philosophy, not science.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

I feel absolutely spiffing after 8 to 10 drinks - According to homeopathetics, it therefore follows that I must be absolutely healthy, in my prime and all that, when I'm moderately drunk.

I definitely feel dis-ease when I have a hangover. The hoemopathetic cure for that condition must then be to remove the symptoms of the dis-ease - time for more drinks, then!

I wonder if all alcoholics have taken on Hahnemanns outdated drivel in addition to their drink...

I feel dis-ease when I jog, y'know, sweaty and short of breath and all that, whereas I feel absolutely great sitting on me bum devouring greasy french fries and loads of beer while I enjoy a good smoke. Using homeopathetic definitions, exercise must be cause of disease and overindulgence the cure.

Not surprisingly, the homeopathetics get everything @ss-backward when they believe the more you dilute something, the more 'potent' it becomes...

Oh - BTW, I also feel distinct dis-ease when reading homeopathetic ravings. Homeopathetic postulates must make me genuinely sick, then - they are a menace to public health and should therefore be eradicated like other contageous diseases. I also feel great when a homeopaths bites the dust in a debate - so debating homeopaths must be one of the healthiest activities around.

Right - pass me another beer and the peanuts, please. Watching a homeopathetic supporter like Gavinimurthy commit intellectual suicide in public is both sad and fascinating.

What really fascinates me about homeopathy is how anyone in 2005 CE with the tiniest bit of common sense and the tiniest bit of education can fall for any of the homeopathetic nonsense and errors - let alone defend, support and promote the bunkum. I admit this is simply beyond my powers of comprehension.

Like the vacationing psychiatrist (IIRC) said of Basil in one episode of "Fawlty Towers": "there's enough for a whole conference here". That surely applies to blivers, defenders and promoters of homeopathetics and other bunkum.

 

[Chris Haynes]

From http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/51.html

? 206 Sixth Edition

Before commencing the treatment of a chronic disease, it is necessary to make the most careful investigation1 as to whether the patient has had a venereal infection (or an infection with condylomatous gonorrhoea); for then the treatment must be directed towards this alone, when only the signs of syphilis (or of the rarer condylomatous disease) are present, but this disease is very seldom met with alone nowadays. If such infection have previously occurred, this must also be borne in mind in the treatment of those cases in which psora is present, because in them the latter is complicated with the former, as is always the case when the symptoms are not those of pure syphilis; for when the physician thinks he has a case of old venereal disease before him, he has always, or almost always, to treat a syphilitic affection accompanied mostly by (complicated with) psora, for the internal itch dyscrasia (the psora) is far the most frequent fundamental cause of chronic diseases . At times, both miasms may be complicated also with sycosis in chronically diseased organisms, or, as is much more frequently the case, psora is the sole fundamental cause of all other chronic maladies, whatever names they may bear, which are, moreover, so often bungled, increased and disfigured to a monstrous extent by allopathic unskillfulness.

Okay, I coming back to this part... the venereal disease defined by an internal itch.

Question: When female homeopaths have yeast infections, do they dose up with a homeopathic remedy or head on down to the "Feminine Products" aisle of their local pharmacy for creams or suppositories? (which, from my personal experience work!).

Or do they fear being "disfigured to a monstrous extent by allopathic unskillfulness" by using the over the counter yeast infection remedies.

 

[Zep]

Always nice to have trolls around.



I'm pretty much in agreement w/most of the skeptics here, but do us a favor and either discuss the topic or spit on some other kids in another sandbox already, k?

Sorry, bigred, but you know not of what you speak. A little research on your part would have served you handsomely.

You haven't been here long enough to know that this is Kumar's fourth (or is it fifth?) time round through the same tired set of questions on exactly the same tired subjects - at least the last 18 months or so. He has been given the answers to his questions that many times by dozens of people in many different ways, and yet he still persists trying to push his line of crap uphill with a pointed stick. So if anyone is a troll, it's Kumar.

As for my particular response to Kumar's assertion that Hpathy is a reputable reference, over the last 18 months or so that site become a standing joke among this community. I'll explain for you.

A number of members here have tried to have a reasoned discussion and enlightenment on homeopathy on the Hpathy forum - no trolling, just looking for verified facts and data on homeopathy, plus some open questions for them - and were roundly scorned and shouted at, then banned. Despite the setbacks, they politely persisted, to be met with even more strident shouting from the Hpathy admin and resident twit posters. More bannings, more new usernames, more screeching and paranoia by Hpathy, more bannings still, repeat a few times.

State of play now: That site has all shields up and itchy fingers on the trigger, and they will summarily ban anyone who asks any questions at all (really!). They even ban new users just on suspicion of being curious! And it continues to publish some of the most outlandish claims for homeopathy that can be found on the net. (In reality, it looks to be just a front for some Indian fakirs trying to sell homeo software and remedies at inflated prices.)

In short, their reputation as a reliable source of information on homeopathy is indeed a priceless joke. It's like insisting Osama Bin Laden is just a bit misunderstood. So when Kumar says "Hapthy is a reputed site in homeopathy", we feel we are entitled to a bit of a laugh.

Don't believe me? Ask around - poster Rolfe will give you plenty of background on that situation! Ask her about Wim Padaan, the dimwitted, confused and angry vet!


[Edit: change metaphor]

 

[Kumar]

Empty speculation. Where is the proof there is such an energy? Where is the proof that such an energy plays any part in disease or health? Unless you can prove this energy exists, you are violating Hahnemann's first postulate. And you are practicing philosophy, not science.

Do you want to say that our body's activities are not energy oriented?

 

[Kumar]

bigred,

Since you are ignorant (as zep is indicationg), people here finds all homeopathic sites & theories as not reputable. They also work in team & since we are few here, anything can be moulded according to their interests.

 

[Donks]

bigred,

Since you are ignorant (as zep is indicationg), people here finds all homeopathic sites & theories as not reputable. They also work in team & since we are few here, anything can be moulded according to their interests.

Not anything. If you had any evidence, things would be different. But of course you will reply with "mass existing... by millions of self-deluded people."

 

[Kumar]

Not anything. If you had any evidence, things would be different. But of course you will reply with "mass existing... by millions of self-deluded people."

People's experiance is best evidance. DO SURVEY. Every scientific introduction is subject to mass...approvals but mass.. approval may not be subject to science because things are meant for mass..people not for science. Several scientific introductions, medicines etc. do fails & so banned on mass....people practical experiances inspite of all advanced & DPBC testings. Moreover, you do not accept that anything is still made as absolute in science. WHY???? Just tell me few absolute medicines or which persisted for hundreds years atleast unabling those to declare as time & mass....people & so practically tested.