Uncontemplated punishment

[Beleth]

There are a few forms of punishment besides incarceration that I'd like to see given a chance.

Life-swapping.
This is mainly for murderers and other people who have taken another human being out of society. The people close to your victim now own you. Your job for the rest of your life is to replace your victim in as many ways as possible. You can have a job, but however much your victim made is deducted from your salary, and given to the victim's loved ones, before you see any of it. As an idea, it needs a lot of work, but it has merits to warrant it.

Banishment / Citizenship revocation.
Yep, good old-fashioned banishment. I think I've brought this up here before; I know I did over on munu. This is an alternative for three-strikes laws. They become officially No Longer Our Concern. Their citizenship is revoked, and they have 90-180 days to find a new country in which to live. They will be given assistance, in the possible form of advocates at various embassies, to find a new place to live. If they are still here at the end of that time period, they are given a boat and enough food, water, and gas for a month, and escorted out to international waters. They can go anywhere they want; they just can't come back here. If they do come back here, they are allowed to be killed on sight.

 

[Kerberos]

There are a few forms of punishment besides incarceration that I'd like to see given a chance.

Life-swapping.
This is mainly for murderers and other people who have taken another human being out of society. The people close to your victim now own you. Your job for the rest of your life is to replace your victim in as many ways as possible. You can have a job, but however much your victim made is deducted from your salary, and given to the victim's loved ones, before you see any of it. As an idea, it needs a lot of work, but it has merits to warrant it.

I'm not sure it would satisfy the victims, he might kill somebody again, and what's to keep him from escaping?

Banishment / Citizenship revocation.
Yep, good old-fashioned banishment. I think I've brought this up here before; I know I did over on munu. This is an alternative for three-strikes laws. They become officially No Longer Our Concern. Their citizenship is revoked, and they have 90-180 days to find a new country in which to live. They will be given assistance, in the possible form of advocates at various embassies, to find a new place to live. If they are still here at the end of that time period, they are given a boat and enough food, water, and gas for a month, and escorted out to international waters. They can go anywhere they want; they just can't come back here. If they do come back here, they are allowed to be killed on sight.

I'm sure other countries will just love you exporting your criminals to them. Also if illegal emmigrant scan live in your coutry so could a banished criminal, sure there'd be a risk but it would be possible.

What on Earth gave you the idea that either of these sugestions were plausible or even sane?

 

[DaChew]

Banishment / Citizenship revocation.
Yep, good old-fashioned banishment. I think I've brought this up here before; I know I did over on munu. This is an alternative for three-strikes laws. They become officially No Longer Our Concern. Their citizenship is revoked, and they have 90-180 days to find a new country in which to live. They will be given assistance, in the possible form of advocates at various embassies, to find a new place to live. If they are still here at the end of that time period, they are given a boat and enough food, water, and gas for a month, and escorted out to international waters. They can go anywhere they want; they just can't come back here. If they do come back here, they are allowed to be killed on sight. [/B]

I'm pretty sure Castro beat you to this idea.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

I'm pretty sure Castro beat you to this idea.

And it worked so well for him, too. It's not like they all gathered together to become a strong political influence in a neighboring, and much more powerful, country that is hostile to his own.

 

[aerocontrols]

And it worked so well for him, too. It's not like they all gathered together to become a strong political influence in a neighboring, and much more powerful, country that is hostile to his own.

I suspect Castro would say that it's worked just fine.

He's going to die of old age while he's still running Cuba, isn't he?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I suspect Castro would say that it's worked just fine.

He's going to die of old age while he's still running Cuba, isn't he?

Yes, but at least we kept Elian! Wait a minute....

 

[Beleth]

Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

I'm not sure it would satisfy the victims, he might kill somebody again, and what's to keep him from escaping?

I'm pretty sure the scenario I'm thinking of is not the same scenario you are thinking of. But yeah, of the two ideas, this is the one I've put the least amount of thought into.

I'm sure other countries will just love you exporting your criminals to them. Also if illegal emmigrant scan live in your coutry so could a banished criminal, sure there'd be a risk but it would be possible.

Us "exporting" our criminals is a common misconception of this system. We're not telling any other country "here, this criminal is your problem now" without getting their permission first. If they don't want them, they don't have to take them. We're just saying to the criminal "since you can't follow our laws, you can't stay here."

It happens all the time in countless other situations. Case in point: message boards. People get suspended or banned from message boards all the time, and no one gives a second thought as to where they go... as long as they go. This system is far more humane in the sense that there will be a system set up for finding the criminal a more suitable place to go.

And sure, a banished criminal could sneak back in, just like a jailed criminal could escape. But the threat of being shot on sight might deter some of them.

 

[Beleth]

Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

I'm pretty sure Castro beat you to this idea.

That's why I called it "good old-fashioned banishment."

 

[Daylight]

I like the organ bank concept for murderers. Instead of killing them and throwing away their bodies, you take them to the local hospital and give away all their useable parts. Heart, Lungs, Liver, Kidney’s, eyes, skin, everything that can be transplanted into another human and increase their quality of life. That way the bad guy gives something back to society. And of course when you’ve given away their parts and there are no more takers, we fully forgive them for their crimes and they are free to go having learned their lesson and ready to become a member of society.

And to be fair to the victim's loved ones they get to pick how much anesthesia is used during the operation.

A total win/win situation for all involved.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

Us "exporting" our criminals is a common misconception of this system. We're not telling any other country "here, this criminal is your problem now" without getting their permission first. If they don't want them, they don't have to take them. We're just saying to the criminal "since you can't follow our laws, you can't stay here."

It's in no way a misconception, You're proposing to leave people in international waters and tell them not to come back. Presuming they don't come back that leaves them two options Antactica and another country. Which do you think they'll choose? Sure you're not actually telling other countries that they have to take them but you're forcing a particuarly unpleasent kind of illegal emmigrant down their throats. Trust me, the Canadians will not be thrilled.

Beside what's the point with the system? why not just kill them? That's going to ve the end result anyways if they don't sneak back or into another country (see exporting the problem). If you have problems applying the death penealty to them directly, you shouldn't do it by the back door either.

It happens all the time in countless other situations. Case in point: message boards. People get suspended or banned from message boards all the time, and no one gives a second thought as to where they go... as long as they go.

Peple banished from message boards ussually haven't killed or raped anybody.

This system is far more humane in the sense that there will be a system set up for finding the criminal a more suitable place to go.

Sure and other countries are just going to be lining up to take your murderers, rapist etc.

And sure, a banished criminal could sneak back in, just like a jailed criminal could escape. But the threat of being shot on sight might deter some of them.

No not, "just like a jailed criminal could escape" this is far easier.

 

[shuize]

What ever happened to the "throwing away the key" concept. I could go for that.

"Here's your cell. Once you're inside, we'll melt the key. On the slim chance that you're exonerated, or when you die, we have a blasting torch handy to cut the bars out. Until then, get comfortable, you're going to be here for a while. If I were you I'd try not to get sick. Oh, and note the photo of your victim enclosed in glass on the opposite wall. If you had any books, you could use that as a reading light since it'll be lit 24 hours a day."

 

[karl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

Sure and other countries are just going to be lining up to take your murderers, rapist etc.

This has come up before. If a person faces certain death in his home country, several nations are currently required by law to accept him as a political refugee. He'd be entitled to a place to live, and would probably spend the rest of his days supported by the taxpayers.

The receiving nations obviously wouldn't like to have this type of cost dumped on them, and I don't think the banishing nation would be particularly happy about the system either. "He murders three people and what does he get? A permanent vacation in Sweden?!"

 

[crimresearch]

There are 2 million people in the US prisons alone...how long do you think the recipient countries would keep those laws on the books after being flooded with convicts from overseas?


Not every place wants to be another Australia, you know.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

This has come up before. If a person faces certain death in his home country, several nations are currently required by law to accept him as a political refugee. He'd be entitled to a place to live, and would probably spend the rest of his days supported by the taxpayers.

The receiving nations obviously wouldn't like to have this type of cost dumped on them, and I don't think the banishing nation would be particularly happy about the system either. "He murders three people and what does he get? A permanent vacation in Sweden?!"

As Crimereseach says, those laws probably wouldn't survive long if it meant a mass influx of common as, opposed to political, criminals.

 

[Beleth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

Peple banished from message boards ussually haven't killed or raped anybody.


Sure and other countries are just going to be lining up to take your murderers, rapist etc.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa.

I'm not talking about murderers and rapists. I'm talking about repeat offenders. The three-strikes people. I said that in my opening post.

People who obviously can't live under the rules we have set up for ourselves. Drug dealers, burglars, things like that. Heavens no, not murderers!

 

[Jon_in_london]

I suspect Castro would say that it's worked just fine.

He's going to die of old age while he's still running Cuba, isn't he?

I hope so.

It would be nice if they buried him with his arse facing the US too... just as a reminder that people love to see ideological bully-boys humiliated.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It would be nice if they buried him with his arse facing the US too... just as a reminder that people love to see ideological bully-boys humiliated.

Well, Florida is shaped like a ****.

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

Whoa whoa whoa whoa.

I'm not talking about murderers and rapists. I'm talking about repeat offenders. The three-strikes people. I said that in my opening post.

People who obviously can't live under the rules we have set up for ourselves. Drug dealers, burglars, things like that. Heavens no, not murderers!

OK, but the points still stand. Other nations don't wan't your criminals and being obnoxios on a message board isn't comparable to being a carreer criminal.

 

[Beleth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

Other nations don't wan't your criminals and being obnoxios on a message board isn't comparable to being a carreer criminal.

Whether other nations want our criminals or not remains to be seen. The point is, the criminals don't want us, they have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't want us, and we in response don't want them either. In that sense, they are eminently comparable to being obnoxious on a message board.

The sticking point here - and I've seen this difficulty elsewhere when I've brought this up - is that there is this deep-seated assumption that simply because someone happened to be born while their mother was standing on our soil means that they are our problem until the day they die. That's why revoking their citizenship has to be part of the banishment process. It's like a parent disowning their child. The criminal has shown that they can't live here and follow the rules we agree to follow; so be it. Maybe they can find somewhere else where their own code of behavior and the laws of the society are more compatible with each other.

We're not forcibly dumping them on anyone else. We're simply not going to let them dump on us any more. If another country feels sorry enough for them to take them, fine. If not, fine. We no longer care, and it is entirely the criminal's fault that we no longer care.

 

[karl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncontemplated punishment

As Crimereseach says, those laws probably wouldn't survive long if it meant a mass influx of common as, opposed to political, criminals.

How many people get sentenced under three-strikes laws annually in the US? A few thousand? The EU already recevies around 300,000 political refugees per year (at its peak in 1992 it was about 680,000), many of whom are common criminals. We'd barely notice the increase, unfortunately.