Unconscious Racism

[belinda]

Thanks for the question!

I have always considered myself not to be racist, but a conversation with my partner made me re-think it. I've been considering posting this story/questino, but did not want to get flamed. So please be gentle.....

I was discussing with my partner about attraction - particularly to people with different racial extraction. He's says he finds most asian girls attractive, but not so with african girls. Whereas I am the opposite, I find most guys of african extraction attractive, but am attacted to very few asian blokes. Remember I am only talking pure physical attraction, not anything else. Anyway, we discussed it, and tried to figure it out and eventually came up with a kind of scale.

Very generally.....those of african descent tend towards more muscular/stronger/masculine features (remember we are being VERY GENERAL here - not saying each individual follows this); those of european descent somewhere in the middle; and those of asian descent more angular, slender, feminine features.

So our theory was we are not so much reacting to the persons alleged race, but to thier physical features that are a result of their genes.

This was just what we came up with...it would be interesting to do a study on it...I would like other's input - does it sound like a "racist" idea? If I haven't expressed myself well enough I'm sorry...and thanks!

 

[evildave]

I think though racism is a conscious decision, certain body language and behavior can seemingly betray a little *something* like an atavistic belief (in a sense of some belief in racial differences like the old social 'darwinism') in people's responses.

A fleeting glance (or prolonged stare), a little protectiveness of one's property, avoidance of physical contact, that sort of thing. Someone who is sensitised to this sort of reaction (i.e. is watching for it; consciously or not) will pick up on it. You might not feel the slightest bit of racism at all, yet the first time you actually *meet* someone of a different race, you could display improper body language, and behave poorly and insultingly anyway. You can only be aware of this, watch for it in yourself and seek ways to acquaint yourself with and get comfortable around racial minorities. I can speak from personal experience that it's beyond humiliating to discover you've displayed 'inappropriate' behavior. If you have a strong tendency to be nervous and/or jumpy in crowds of people, guess what your body language and reactions will precisely mimic?

Of course, to be offended is a choice as well, even though many are not aware of that choice.

 

[Jude]

The movie Dawn of the Dead threw me a curveball recently. In the beginning, the protagonist hooked up with a black man (with a gun, no less), a white man, and a pregnant white woman. I naturally assumed that the two white folk were hitched, but was taken off guard when it was revealed that it was the black man's wife, and the black man's baby. I felt embarrassed for my assumption, and my security as a non-racist was a bit shaken.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

No. But it helps instead to say what you are. "I am a human"
My time in the Army helped alot in overcoming my own early racism. It was the first time I ever lived with and got drunk with black guys. Who told me repeatedly in sloppy drunkenese that if the Russians and East Germans ever attacked they'd be happy to watch my back. They were good men, and I rarely think of my Army buds as black or white since we were all basically GREEN!

-z

Yes, this reminds me of a comedy skit on Australian TV about those Vietnam movies that were coming out. The white marine has his life saved by the black marine. He has a sudden burst of love for all his army buds, "Hey, this event has taught me we are all human deep down, black or white, now lets go kill some gooks".

 

[a_unique_person]

The movie Dawn of the Dead threw me a curveball recently. In the beginning, the protagonist hooked up with a black man (with a gun, no less), a white man, and a pregnant white woman. I naturally assumed that the two white folk were hitched, but was taken off guard when it was revealed that it was the black man's wife, and the black man's baby. I felt embarrassed for my assumption, and my security as a non-racist was a bit shaken.

That is one thing I do notice about a lot of American TV, the shows seem to be segregated to a large degree. Often they are all white/all black, and mixed marriages, even if blacks and whites are on the same show, very rare. Movies, not as much.

 

[BillyTK]

What about induced racism where none might have existed before? Suppose you are dealing with someone who is in their job because of affarmative action. Might you not wonder about his competance? Or a degree form an A-list university? This really has nothing to do with the person but that government and institutions, by their actions, plant doubt.

I think the racism is already in existence, and you're just waiting for the person in question to fail in order to justify your beliefs, but then I don't see how AA can substitute for competence to do the job in question—aren't AA schemes in private industry voluntary?—although I can see how this belief might come about.

Reminds me of someone I used to know a while back, who got her job through positive discrimination, because even though she was more than experienced and qualified enough to hold the job down, her gender was held against her because it was a predominantly male industry, and it would be unfair to employ women, especially in any position of authority, as they'd be isolated and intimidated by their male colleagues (can everyone see where I'm going with this one?). So of course this person had two strikes against her, because she was a woman, and because she'd positively discriminated, which meant of course that she must have been promoted over more suitable (male) candidates, and was therefore incompetent.

I don't see how racism can be induced, other than say being brought up in an environment in which racist attitudes are the norm, and never being in a position of having to challenge those beliefs; group consensus and its effects on individual esteem can be a powerful way of making you conform to the group's norms and values, but no-one can force you to be racist if you choose not to be.

 

[Loon]

Think one confound on this issue is that the word "racism" can mean somewhat different things. There is a distinct difference between the "White Power" crowd and those who think "There's a Hispanic guy walking up the street towards me. I shouldn't feel afraid, but this is unsettling." To put it another way, not all racsim is violent hatred.

I'm not sure if anyone has any choice in how they feel about it, but they certainly have a choice in how they act. For the enlightened among us (i.e., the second type of racist) the best we can do is thorough and constant introspection.

 

[crimresearch]

Think one confound on this issue is that the word "racism" can mean somewhat different things. There is a distinct difference between the "White Power" crowd and those who think "There's a Hispanic guy walking up the street towards me. I shouldn't feel afraid, but this is unsettling." To put it another way, not all racsim is violent hatred.

I'm not sure if anyone has any choice in how they feel about it, but they certainly have a choice in how they act. For the enlightened among us (i.e., the second type of racist) the best we can do is thorough and constant introspection.

And how does it benefit the human race to make up definitions of racism that run contrary to the actual definition?

The 'Here comes an Hispanic guy...' can be further subdivided into 'Here comes an Hispanic guy in stereotypical gang attire with obvious prison tattoos, who suddenly stopped what he was doing to cross the street and head towards me with his hand down his waistband' or 'Here comes an Hispanic guy dressed in a UPS uniform carrying a small package and a clipboard, who just got out of a UPS truck', or 'Here comes Dr Nunez, my neighbor'.

The assumption that noticing that Dr. Nunez is Hispanic, or that wondering if the first example is going to fulfill any other sterotypes about Hispanics, automatically means that everyone is a racist is too pat and easy an answer, which actually removes the impetus fo self examination.

 

[BillyTK]

And how does it benefit the human race to make up definitions of racism that run contrary to the actual definition?

This would presuppose there is one, actual definition, rather than a number of contemporary definitions which are constantly being challenged and revised?

For instance, currently the term "anti-semitism" has a specific meaning and a specific origin; it's quite possible that in the future usage will more generalised to mean, for example, religious bigotry or ethnic bigotry, rather than specific hatred of Jewish people.

 

[crimresearch]

"This would presuppose there is one, actual definition, rather than a number of contemporary definitions which are constantly being challenged and revised?"

It presuppposes that there are necessary elements, which if not present, render the use of the word incorrect.

In the case of 'racism', those elements would be intent, or actions, or beliefs.

I'm well aware that standard usage of loaded words is constantly being 'challenged and revised' by those who want to misuse them to gain power over others.
A particularly egregious example would be the Dworkinites who used to go into book stores and when they saw a man reading a Playboy or a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, start screaming 'Rape!!' and 'Rapist!!!' at the top of their lungs.

So how does it advantage to human race to create such 'revised' definitions that subvert accurate and useful communication to further power mongering goals?

And more specifically, how does it promote the lessening of racism to over-broaden the definition until everything is racism, and everyone racist?

 

[richardm]

For instance, currently the term "anti-semitism" has a specific meaning and a specific origin; it's quite possible that in the future usage will more generalised to mean, for example, religious bigotry or ethnic bigotry, rather than specific hatred of Jewish people.

We've already seen some efforts at that on this very forum, in fact. "People of Semitic descent are not necessarily Jews, therefore it is harmless/meaningless to be anti-semitic". Or some such nonsense, can't quite recall all the semantic twists.

 

[Virgil]

what a truly excellent thread...I would some of our black posters would comment.


V

 

[BillyTK]

So how does it advantage to human race to create such 'revised' definitions that subvert accurate and useful communication to further power mongering goals?

I don't see it as necessarily advantageous or wholly the result of power-mongering—although there is an element of the latter to a lesser or greater extent depending on the significance of the word; see for instance, "terrorist", "weapons of mass destruction", "freedom" for instance—as much as an ongoing process, as in the way that meanings of the words gay, merry, rubber, bad, wicked &c &c change over time and across distance.

And more specifically, how does it promote the lessening of racism to over-broaden the definition until everything is racism, and everyone racist?

Assuming that such is the intent; on the other hand, if everything is racist, then nothing is racist, because we will redefine the parameters accordingly. The racism of White supremacists is different in content and direction to that of Black supremacists, which is different to the racism that Irish immigrants in England experienced, although the latter is very similar to the kind of racism that later Black and Asian immigrants experienced. However, only White supremacist racism bears any resemblance to the ideology of race which hung around like a bad smell for more than a couple of centuries, and found expression in the African slave trade, Hitler's Germany and Apartheid South Africa for instance. So is the concept of racism being too weakened in being stretched to accommodate all these different versions, and would it be more appropriate to use more specific terms for each example? Is racism being misused to cover prejudice that arises from a general sense of difference rather than the specific idea of race? Or is it all too complex to disentangle?

 

[crimresearch]

"So is the concept of racism being too weakened in being stretched to accommodate all these different versions, and would it be more appropriate to use more specific terms for each example? Is racism being misused to cover prejudice that arises from a general sense of difference rather than the specific idea of race? Or is it all too complex to disentangle?"

Good points. My personal sense of it is that prejudices which arise from a general sense of difference are very much a root cause of many of the ills in society, and that as people disadvantage each other, there are systemic 'filters' if you will that make it more obvious along racial lines.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Thanks for the question!

I was discussing with my partner about attraction - particularly to people with different racial extraction....

...So our theory was we are not so much reacting to the persons alleged race, but to thier physical features that are a result of their genes.
B]

One one hand I'd point out this distinction is artificial, physical features that are a result of their genes are what distinguishes one race from another. At the same time, I don't believe personal tastes in a mate are a valid criteria to judge someone's potential racism. Who we find attractive is hard-wired into us at a level far beyond our control or understanding, it doesn't make sense to hold us accountable for it.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
That is one thing I do notice about a lot of American TV, the shows seem to be segregated to a large degree. Often they are all white/all black, and mixed marriages, even if blacks and whites are on the same show, very rare. Movies, not as much.

One example I can think of is Deep Space Nine, where inter-species mixing is common, but if Benjamin Sisco gets a wife or girlfriend, she’s gonna be black like him. Apparently the producers believe a human mating with an alien is less taboo than a human mating with another human of a different race, even though the show is set 400 years in the future where race is no longer an issue.

Television is very conservative that way. The goal is to sell advertising, so if there is a fear that even a tiny percentage of the audience will tune out over a race issue, there will be no race issue. Unless, of course, the point is to be controversial and get viewers that way.

 

[Tmy]

How about these Bachelor type TV shows. THey always toss in the obligatory asian/black/hispanic contestants. But they get cut right away.

 

[BillyTK]

Re: Re: Thanks for the question!

One example I can think of is Deep Space Nine, where inter-species mixing is common, but if Benjamin Sisco gets a wife or girlfriend, she’s gonna be black like him. Apparently the producers believe a human mating with an alien is less taboo than a human mating with another human of a different race, even though the show is set 400 years in the future where race is no longer an issue.

Good point, especially considering that Cisco's mother was a space alien. But I do remember a particularly powerful episode (DS9? A powerful episode? Surely some mistake!) in which, for reasons too complex/tedious to explain, Cisco was living as an SF writer in Los Angeles (IIRC) in the 1930s; the twist was that he was writing SF stories set on board a space station in the far future (we're getting a bit intertextual here), but his stories were constantly being rejected by his editor because, well, no-one would buy the idea of a Black space station captain! Makes you wonder how significant Plato's Stepchildren actually was...

 

[BillyTK]

Good points. My personal sense of it is that prejudices which arise from a general sense of difference are very much a root cause of many of the ills in society, and that as people disadvantage each other, there are systemic 'filters' if you will that make it more obvious along racial lines.

I agree. Group membership is integral to an individual's esteem and sense of identity, but the concepts they use to define the group are typically already in existence, such as race. If Charles Linnaeus hadn't developed his racial classification which placed Blacks somewhere between other people and apes, then maybe we'd be using eye colour as the expression of our prejudices.

 

[a_unique_person]

If only the Neanderthals had lived to now, there would be a group we would all agree was sub-human.

 

[BillyTK]

If only the Neanderthals had lived to now, there would be a group we would all agree was sub-human.

This is outrageous! Of course, the correct term would be evolutionary-challenged.