Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black man

I don't like statistics in these systemic racism discussions. Statistical significance is hard to come by from just looking at how many of X category of people get degrees versus Y category of people. I think it gets complicated when you include other ethnicities and demographic groups, like Hispanics, who can be black and/or white and it can be difficult if not impossible to determine how their skin color or racial background is relevant to the results.

It doesn't sound skeptical but I think white privilege is one of those 'you know it when you see it' things. It's most visible when juxtaposing treatment of black people vs white people. I think Barack Obama vs Donald Trump is a great case study. Trump apologists and voters would never tolerate the same behavior from Obama. I don't have any facts, I just know it's true.
 
Venom said:
I don't like statistics in these systemic racism discussions. Statistical significance is hard to come by from just looking at how many of X category of people get degrees versus Y category of people. I think it gets complicated when you include other ethnicities and demographic groups, like Hispanics, who can be black and/or white and it can be difficult if not impossible to determine how their skin color or racial background is relevant to the results.
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I don't disagree and yet at the same time Kendi's argument that unequal outcomes may at some level be due to race has some validity. Let's assume for the moment that the NY Times' Black staffers are equally qualified for the job as the white staffers. Then it seems highly unlikely that they would get a disproportionately high share of the low ratings and a disproportionately low share of the high ratings.

Now let's assume for the moment that the Times' Black staffers tend not to be equally qualified for the job as white staffers. Let's say that the Times is trying to diversify (as they have publicly stated), and in order to do this they have had to relax some standards in order to get more minority hires. This would certainly explain why Blacks at the Times are more likely to struggle than whites, but that's still not a valid excuse. In my mind, if you are going to hire less qualified people intentionally, then it is entirely on you to bring those people up to speed, and if you don't, then you're the one who should be getting the low ratings.
 
"I strongly suspect it's there, based on my understanding of human nature, but it is difficult to quantify" would be substantially the same sentiment?
 
Venom said:
It doesn't sound skeptical but I think white privilege is one of those 'you know it when you see it' things. It's most visible when juxtaposing treatment of black people vs white people. I think Barack Obama vs Donald Trump is a great case study. Trump apologists and voters would never tolerate the same behavior from Obama. I don't have any facts, I just know it's true.
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I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that's a good example. I don't think Trump supporters would tolerate the same behavior from any Democrat.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that's a good example. I don't think Trump supporters would tolerate the same behavior from any Democrat.
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Most of them couldn't tolerate Obama period, with Dolt 45 himself being one of the most obvious examples of someone just outright spewing racist crap like Bull Connor with diarrhea. But I also remember that the PUMA clinton -> McCain voters were more numerous than the Bernie stans in 2016 and 2020, although thanks to social media the latter were much more obnoxious.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Social media seems to make a lot of otherwise normal humans turn into rabid hyenas vomiting out obnoxiousness :(
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It also shows the incredible ignorance of most of the population regarding political systems, law, and logical debate.
 
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I am sure some of you have noticed how it keeps getting easier to be labeled racist, sexists or gender insensitive in some way. The bar keeps getting lower.

There was a paper in 2018 that looked at a possible reason why this is the case.

Abstract:
Why do some social problems seem so intractable? In a series of experiments, we show that people often respond to decreases in the prevalence of a stimulus by expanding their concept of it. When blue dots became rare, participants began to see purple dots as blue; when threatening faces became rare, participants began to see neutral faces as threatening; and when unethical requests became rare, participants began to see innocuous requests as unethical. This “prevalence-induced concept change” occurred even when participants were forewarned about it and even when they were instructed and paid to resist it. Social problems may seem intractable in part because reductions in their prevalence lead people to see more of them.
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Prevalence-induced concept change in human judgment
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/1465

A discussion of this by Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein:

Reduction in Racism Leads People to See More Racism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKyMZVbh4Ps

This alleged human tendency does not have to be the only factor involved. It would couple nicely with a Marxist agenda to divide and disrupt via intersectionality and critical race theory.
 
As soon as people stop making excuses for/dismissing obvious/murderous racism/bigotry absolutely all the goddamn time, I’ll start worrying about the problems posed by perception creep.

In the meantime the problem of tumblr activists labeling people problematic for looking at someone funny or not using the right verbiage, while certainly problematic, is not something I lose sleep over. And I’m pleased to report that I do often see recognition of and pushback against that trend, in that community. It’s not monolithically racing towards universal lockstep saber rattling over every tiny little thing.
 
Lithrael said:
As soon as people stop making excuses for/dismissing obvious/murderous racism/bigotry absolutely all the goddamn time, I’ll start worrying about the problems posed by perception creep.
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Absolutely. Why, as long as there are mass murderers out there, don't lose any sleep over rapes, or even you beating your kids, amirite?

In the meantime the problem of tumblr activists labeling people problematic for looking at someone funny or not using the right verbiage, while certainly problematic, is not something I lose sleep over. And I’m pleased to report that I do often see recognition of and pushback against that trend, in that community. It’s not monolithically racing towards universal lockstep saber rattling over every tiny little thing.
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Yeah, people being irrational and racially polarizing is nothing to worry about. What could go wrong?
 
TruthJonsen said:
I am sure some of you have noticed how it keeps getting easier to be labeled racist, sexists or gender insensitive in some way. The bar keeps getting lower.

There was a paper in 2018 that looked at a possible reason why this is the case.



Prevalence-induced concept change in human judgment
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/1465

A discussion of this by Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein:

Reduction in Racism Leads People to See More Racism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKyMZVbh4Ps

This alleged human tendency does not have to be the only factor involved. It would couple nicely with a Marxist agenda to divide and disrupt via intersectionality and critical race theory.
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Spark notes version: when you want to see someone as guilty, you'll find no shortage of evidence.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Came across this series on YouTube, well worth watching to get an idea of both sides of the racial divide.



There are presently 9 of these episodes about topics such as;

White Privilege and White Allergies,
How to teach your kids about race
Reverse Racism
White Parents raising Black Kids
Interracial relationships
Race and Religion
The National Anthem Protests
Police and Black Lives Matter

Each is 10-20 minutes long and well worth it.
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If this is the porotype of the emancipated black person envisioned by the 'progressives' of today well we have a big problem (he's rather a jerk I'd say given the incident with the bicycle he proudly use to further his cause). All these guys seem to know is that the whites had an injust head start and if something bad happens the automatic question is 'who did that to us?' (the whites, the West, the Europeans usually).

That fellow Africans played an important role in the slave trade of the past (both in relation with Europeans and Arabs) or that the concept of not selling enslaved people to willing buyers was strange to many people up until the 1800s seem to be completely alien to them. They know nothing about the islamic slave trade which lasted a lot longer than the Atlantic trade (abolished only in the 20th century but still alive even today ), nothing about what was good in the European civilization which actually made him possible as a free man.

We should not be surprised about these irrational riots and other disorders; when everything is built on, at most, half truths a better world on medium and long term is indeed just another utopia (hint, blame the 'progressivism' without Rationality of today for that).
 
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In the context of the US, African involvement in the slave trade is a blame-game red herring. Africans didn't do slavery the same way and had no idea of the depths of depravity the Europeans would get up to, and in America, we bred slaves. Most places in the British Empire that they shipped Africans to, worked them quickly to death. Europeans sent Africans to the US, but we took over in the atrocities game from there. Those millions of second, third, fourth generation slaves, have no connection to Africa and all blame for their treatment and how the US legal system has treated American citizens who had too much melanin is all on us.
 
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