Uncensored Gore

[Cain]

My God! who on earth would manipulate elections?? This simply has no history in American politics.

Perhaps we need the U.N. to oversee our next election.

 

[a_unique_person]

If something is patented then you don't have to worry about anyone "stealing" it, becuase you havea legal right of ownership to the technology.There is no need at all to "protect" anything that is patented, that IS what the patent does, it legally protects it.

The defense of the idea that the public should have full access to the inerworking of any vote counting device is beyond absurd. No one can seriously be in defense of democracy and sit there and say that the public should not have full access to the working of any device or proces that is used to count votes. That should be design consideration #1.

That is not quite true, as plenty of people search the patents for something to steal, in the hope that they won't be caught. There is a company in Western Australia that has invented a process to produce high quality fake gemstones. They have deliberately chosen not to patent this idea, just because they know that if they did, the ideas behind the patent will be stolen. Instead, they keep their invention a closely guarded secret. (Seems you can't trust anyone these days in the corporate world).

Either way, if a process in Democracy is not open and transparent to all, then it is not a process that should be used.

 

[Tony]

Look over the sequence of your posts one more time. You called him a left-wing authoritarian before even bothering to ask those questions. So why don't you holster that sidearm, cowboy, and try to pick a target before shooting wildly.

Are you blind or ignorant? Did you not see where I recanted what I said about Vidal?

I’m sorry if it pre-judged this guy, but I am extremely skeptical of any political loudmouth. Most have turned out to be hypocrites.

Now, are you going to answer my questions?

 

[Tony]

Perhaps we need the U.N. to oversee our next election.

I never thought you would be the type to advocate genocide and/or mass murder.

 

[Chaos]

I never thought you would be the type to advocate genocide and/or mass murder.

Huh? Projecting your own statements on others? Tony, Tony, what´s wrong with you?

 

[Cain]

Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony.

I did see that -- but I had no idea what you were talking about. "I'm sorry if it pre-judged the guy..." Who is it?

Before that, recall your silly question-mark.

Before that recall you equated me to this "authoritarian."

The sequence of events is, ahem, rather important.


[taken out of order]

I never thought you would be the type to advocate genocide and/or mass murder.

I'm not sure how this follows, but then, in your world, I'm not sure anything makes much sense... except for the irony factor: You recently wished to see the annihilation of Palestinians.

Are you now suggesting the UN *causes* genocide and murder, and would do so in the United States? I only ask because, well, you did call regulations on toilets a form of "tyranny," even going so far as to equate them to equally invasive (*snicker*) cameras in the restroom.

Now, are you going to answer my questions?

Which questions? You mean the sentence about taxes etc. that you asked after smearing Vidal? You can always go out and peform an honest investigation. The critical point is that you smeared him out of ignorance. In all likelihood you probably discovered the link off some kooky right-wing website that told you to get upset (what are you doing reading LA Weekly??).

___________________________

Interesting unrelated fact:

In a '68 debate on ABC, Vidal called Bill Buckley a "crypto nazi-fascist" (or something to that effect), and the usually reserved paleo-conservative went balistic and said he'd smash Gore's "goddamn queer face" in (again, I'm a paraphrasing). Vidal is a ntional treasure for that incident alone.

 

[Tony]

Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony.

I did see that -- but I had no idea what you were talking about. "I'm sorry if it pre-judged the guy..." Who is it?

Before that, recall your silly question-mark.

Before that recall you equated me to this "authoritarian."

The sequence of events is, ahem, rather important.


[taken out of order]



I'm not sure how this follows, but then, in your world, I'm not sure anything makes much sense... except for the irony factor: You recently wished to see the annihilation of Palestinians.

Are you now suggesting the UN *causes* genocide and murder, and would do so in the United States? I only ask because, well, you did call regulations on toilets a form of "tyranny," even going so far as to equate them to equally invasive (*snicker*) cameras in the restroom.



Which questions? You mean the sentence about taxes etc. that you asked after smearing Vidal? You can always go out and peform an honest investigation. The critical point is that you smeared him out of ignorance. In all likelihood you probably discovered the link off some kooky right-wing website that told you to get upset (what are you doing reading LA Weekly??).

___________________________

Interesting unrelated fact:

In a '68 debate on ABC, Vidal called Bill Buckley a "crypto nazi-fascist" (or something to that effect), and the usually reserved paleo-conservative went balistic and said he'd smash Gore's "goddamn queer face" in (again, I'm a paraphrasing). Vidal is a ntional treasure for that incident alone.

This is what I expected, your usual obfuscation and evasion tactics.

 

[Tony]

Huh? Projecting your own statements on others? Tony, Tony, what´s wrong with you?

He suggested we have the UN "oversee" the next US election. The only thing the UN is capable of "overseeing" is genocide. As evidenced by their pussyfooting in Rwanda and Iraq.

 

[Chaos]

He suggested we have the UN "oversee" the next US election. The only thing the UN is capable of "overseeing" is genocide. As evidenced by their pussyfooting in Rwanda and Iraq.

The UN has, to my knowledge, never made things worse than they already were.

So if the UN monitors the elections, the worst thing that might happen is that Bush´s pals steal the election.

 

[BTox]

There is plenty of evidence for that (pertaining to AMerica as an imperial nation run by corporate and political insiders).

There is? I'd sure like to see it. I remind you that there is also "plenty of evidence" that homeopathy is effective. I don't buy that load of crap, either.

Most of them can't even be bothered voting any more. Does that tell you something?

Most don't vote? Hmm, in the last pres election 54.7% of the US population voted, that qualifies as most in my book. And that was a higher turnout than 1996. The 1992 election turnout was only a point or 2 lower than 1976. If you dig deeper in the demographics, you find the lowest turnout amongst the youngest voters, kids 18-24 and young adults. I'd attribute that more to laziness and preoccupation with other issues (like career formation and family) than anything else.

Seems fair enough to me. He is trying to get away from the labelling process. I would find it strange if everyone assessed me first and foremost as being hetero. I am, but I don't see myself as being defined by that. Eg. Saying "Gore Vidal is one of the great Gay writers of the 20th Century" is not what he wants to be defined as.

I showed Vidal's statement to a gay friend I work with (also a scientist). He disagrees, and claims he was born gay (they don't like the term homosexual, btw), believes it is biochemical/brain in nature and not just a behavior.

I suppose Gore prefers to be remembered as: "Gore Vidal is one of the great crank writers of the 20th century".

For him, being gay, it is entirely natural. Psychiatrists did try to treat it, and many Fundies still want to 'cure' it.

Patently absurd notion that psychiatrists created this. There is certainly no effort to treatment this day and age.

What 'woo-woo' is there?

Every statement I originally listed is woowoo. I happen to like his books. What's the big deal, so he's a crank. Most highly creative people are pretty wacky.

 

[Cain]

This is what I expected, your usual obfuscation and evasion tactics.

Can you please just stop this nonsense and tell me your three-thousand+ posts are intended as a joke?

Obfuscation and evasive tactics?

You're the one who, in an effort to evade previous claims, says something even more outrageously stupid (as evidenced by the UN comment). I mean, this stuff is just plain nutty, and frankly, almost scary.

So if the UN came oversees the next Presidential US election, the result would be genocide *because* of UN involvement? Is that what you're saying? And who would be the target of this genocide -- already oppressed white people?

 

[Renfield]

So Vidal's a paranoid for saying that it might be a bad idea to have electronic voting machines, especially when they're made by Bush supporters?

I think you're the one who's out of touch with reality, or at least completely unaware of what's been going on in this country for the last few years, starting with the presidential election.

 

[Renfield]

At least if there is a fair election, an election that is not electronic. That would be dangerous. We don’t want an election without a paper trail. The makers of the voting machines say no one can look inside of them, because they would reveal trade secrets. What secrets? Isn’t their job to count votes? Or do they get secret messages from Mars? Is the cure for cancer inside the machines?

EARTH TO GORE VIDAL: they mean the technical details of the patented technology that does the counting.

Jeez!

I mean, come on. And all three owners of the companies who make these machines are donors to the Bush administration. Is this not corruption?

Corruption--perhaps, conspiracy--no.

That companies that give the ruling party money tend to be rewarded with government contracts is hardly news. But to imply that this is some sort of "insider job" to create "pro-republican" machines is insane. Perhaps the CEO of the company got the contract as part of a kickback.

But can you imagine the chief technical officer of the company saying to the development team of engineers: "now look, out goal here is to create a voting machine that rigs the elections in favor of Bush. First of all, we need a program that makes every 'democrat' vote into a 'republican' vote on command from a remote control. Oh, and it's a SECRET, so DON'T TELL ANYBODY we are establishing a dictatorship here, OK?"

Gore Vidal doesn't seem to know how the real world works anymore.

So the only way tampering could occur is if it's some massive conspiricy involving the entire Republican party, everyone involved in designing the machines and every election worker in America?

That's not how these things happen. Vidal's spent his life studying us history, he's forgotten more than you'll ever know. And he knows how elections can and have been tampered with. You're the one who's out of touch.

 

[Tony]

You're the one who, in an effort to evade previous claims, says something even more outrageously stupid (as evidenced by the UN comment). I mean, this stuff is just plain nutty, and frankly, almost scary.

So if the UN came oversees the next Presidential US election, the result would be genocide *because* of UN involvement? Is that what you're saying? And who would be the target of this genocide -- already oppressed white people?

As usual, Cain's teenage girl mentality keeps him from addressing the issue at hand. I was trying to get your honest opinion of Vidal, yet your prideful ignorance and persecution complex hinders your ability to keep you from making an ass out of yourself.

Sorry I asked.

 

[Tony]

The UN has, to my knowledge, never made things worse than they already were.

You're knowledge must be rather limited. Since 1991, the conditions in Iraq under the UN sanctions got a lot worse.

 

[Cain]

As usual, Cain's teenage girl mentality keeps him from addressing the issue at hand. I was trying to get your honest opinion of Vidal, yet your prideful ignorance and persecution complex hinders your ability to keep you from making an ass out of yourself.

Sorry I asked.

Ah, yes, you openly and honestly solicit opinions by asking people of "his (and your ilk)".

Here's my "teenage girl mentality" in response:

Like, whatever.

 

[Tony]

Ah, yes, you openly and honestly solicit opinions by asking people of "his (and your ilk)".

Did I hurt your poor wittle feelings? Is that the cause of your incessant crying? I got news for you little girl, dont dish it out if you cant take it.

 

[Skeptic]

So the only way tampering could occur is if it's some massive conspiricy involving the entire Republican party, everyone involved in designing the machines and every election worker in America?

Nope, but let's see who will have to be involved for a minute:

1). The president
2). Some "in-between" guy to pass the secret messages
3). The "brass" in the three corporations making the machines
4). All of the designers of the machine
5). At least a significant portion of the elections workers supervising the machine so that "tampering" will be allowed.

...and if even ONE of these guys talks--especially in echelons (4) and (5)--all hell will break loose and Bush will go to jail, let alone destroy the party, just like Nixon.

And this super-secrecy is supposed to come from the same government with the $400 hammers and the "paperwork reduction act".

Hmmmmmmmm...... what's wrong with THAT picture?

That's not how these things happen.

It sure isn't! In the last two times a president or a candidate tries to rig elections (Tilden in the 1870s, Nixon in the 1970s) they were both caught and their political career destroyed, narrowly avoiding jail--using far, far fewer people (and therefore far less likely to be discovered) than this conspiracy must do.

In ALL cases--literally--in history where elections WERE rigged succesfully, it wasn't by some sort of "secret conspiracy". It was by using obvious force, the one-party system, intimidation, etc.

Vidal's spent his life studying us history, he's forgotten more than you'll ever know.

Ad hominem abusive.

And he knows how elections can and have been tampered with.

So he should have heard of Tilden and Nixon and not make such silly statements.

 

[a_unique_person]

In ALL cases--literally--in history where elections WERE rigged succesfully, it wasn't by some sort of "secret conspiracy". It was by using obvious force, the one-party system, intimidation, etc.

ALL, that's a big claim. I think you really need to re-examine it.

I have been one of the people handing out how to vote cards. There are numerous examples of, not outright 'fraud', but very dodgy and misleading practices in elections. The votes themselves may not have been tampered with, but the influence of voters is not at all honest.

You haven't heard of coloureds being intimidated against voting and registering?

Vidal's spent his life studying us history, he's forgotten more than you'll ever know.

Ad hominem abusive.

And he knows how elections can and have been tampered with.

So he should have heard of Tilden and Nixon and not make such silly statements.

If Nixon hadn't been caught, due to sheer coincidence, it wouldn't have come out.

 

[BTox]

You haven't heard of coloureds being intimidated against voting and registering?

Coloureds? Where (or what decade of the mid 20th century) are you from? Voter fraud in the U.S. pretty much evens out, the dems are as good at it (if not better) than the republicans. How many dead people voted for JFK in IL?