Unburned passports at ground zero

nicepants said:
I guess truthers must believe that the shuttle columbia crash was an inside job too, because there were plenty of pieces of paper which survived that, including a journal belonging to one of the astronauts.
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Yes but where was the astronaut from?
 
Eddie Dane said:
Thanks for all the feedback.

It is a freak occurrence.
But such a big and unusual event will cause quite a few freak occurrences, I suppose.
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Now, don't take this as a criticism; rather, it's my contribution to the thread. But I don't think if the unburnt passports even qualify as a "freak occurance". There have been other fires and plane crashes where items survive relatively unscathed. It's not something you can count on occuring every time, but at the same time it's not something that's unheard of either. Think of the famous "worm experiment" that survived the breakup of the space shuttle Columbia; I'd consider that to be way more unlikely than a document surviving even a high speed jetliner crash like the 9/11 ones - I'd even go so far as to call that a freak occurance over the hijacker's passport surviving - yet it happened, and under conditions more extreme than what the Flight 11 or 175 contents would've experienced.

My opinion is that this complaint is less about finding the truth and more about the conspiracy fantasists' need to find anomalies they can use to inject doubt about the established history of the event. That allows them to conduct their normal and obviously preferred process of proselytisation rather than work towards actually resolving what the history of that day truly was. If their agitation was honestly about finding the truth, then they would've let the process of examination, analysis, debate, and information discovery inform them rather than present the stale old questions over and over again. And believe me, damn near every truther has heard of the answer to this question before; it doesn't stop them from using it to peddle their misinformation to people and venues previously uninformed on 9/11 conspiracy myths.
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
It was the journal of astronaut Colonel Ilan Ramon, a veteran combat pilot of the Israeli Air Force. He flew on the famous raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor facility at Osirak.

Colonel Ramons diary is on display in a museum in Jerusalem.
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Yes and you know exactly what the resident idiot representatives of the retarded TM are going to claim about an Israeli diary.
 
Lupie said:
Many years ago I assisted in the recovery of wreckage from a Stearman Biplane that crashed in a fairly remote area. The pilot died on impact, and the resulting fire from nearly full fuel tanks really did a number on almost everything. So I was quite surprised when I came across a nearly new, unburned 20 dollar bill, and a bunch of paperwork that had been in a pouch in the cockpit. Some items were really heavily burned, others only slightly, and some not at all. The 20 came from the pilots wallet which, for comfort, he kept in the breast pocket of his jacket. Paperwork/passports and such can easily survive even a violent crash and intense fire.
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[CT'ist]Then why didn't they just build the towers out of $20 bills?![/CT'ist]
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
It was the journal of astronaut Colonel Ilan Ramon, a veteran combat pilot of the Israeli Air Force. He flew on the famous raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor facility at Osirak.

Colonel Ramons diary is on display in a museum in Jerusalem.
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This is a bit off topic, but,

I just read that IAF Capt. Assaf Ramon, son of the late Col. Ilan Ramon, was killed when his F-16 crashed during a training flight yesterday. Very sad news.

L.
 
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ElMondoHummus said:
Now, don't take this as a criticism; rather, it's my contribution to the thread. But I don't think if the unburnt passports even qualify as a "freak occurance". There have been other fires and plane crashes where items survive relatively unscathed. It's not something you can count on occuring every time, but at the same time it's not something that's unheard of either. Think of the famous "worm experiment" that survived the breakup of the space shuttle Columbia; I'd consider that to be way more unlikely than a document surviving even a high speed jetliner crash like the 9/11 ones - I'd even go so far as to call that a freak occurance over the hijacker's passport surviving - yet it happened, and under conditions more extreme than what the Flight 11 or 175 contents would've experienced.

My opinion is that this complaint is less about finding the truth and more about the conspiracy fantasists' need to find anomalies they can use to inject doubt about the established history of the event. That allows them to conduct their normal and obviously preferred process of proselytisation rather than work towards actually resolving what the history of that day truly was. If their agitation was honestly about finding the truth, then they would've let the process of examination, analysis, debate, and information discovery inform them rather than present the stale old questions over and over again. And believe me, damn near every truther has heard of the answer to this question before; it doesn't stop them from using it to peddle their misinformation to people and venues previously uninformed on 9/11 conspiracy myths.
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They also found an intact and playable personal video tape alongside a road in Texas. This tape not only survived the break up but a fiery re-entry.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/3604/nasa_recovers_columbia_cockpit_videotape/
 
ElMondoHummus said:
My opinion is that this complaint is less about finding the truth and more about the conspiracy fantasists' need to find anomalies they can use to inject doubt about the established history of the event. That allows them to conduct their normal and obviously preferred process of proselytisation rather than work towards actually resolving what the history of that day truly was. If their agitation was honestly about finding the truth, then they would've let the process of examination, analysis, debate, and information discovery inform them rather than present the stale old questions over and over again. And believe me, damn near every truther has heard of the answer to this question before; it doesn't stop them from using it to peddle their misinformation to people and venues previously uninformed on 9/11 conspiracy myths.
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A very accurate analysis. I've always believed that for the "truthers", the hunt was everything, and the prize was only secondary. In many cases, that could be understandable, but in their case the hunt is a total fabrication, and the prize non-existent.

L.
 
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Well, once they invest so much time in believing the conspiracy, it's hard for them to give it up.
 
This is not suprising.

Two reasons.

I found and saw thousands of papers on the ground and still falling from the sky when I got to the towers that morning. It actually takes a substantial amount of heat to set a piece of paper on fire. You can take a piece of paper, and slide it through a flame all day, and it most likely not burn. But, keep that flame in the same spot, and it takes little time at all to catch on fire.

Secondly, I have seen a house completly burn to the ground, and have found file folders that were in a box in the closet almost in perfect condition.
 
Another sole survivor:


Date of Crash: January 26, 1972
Aircraft type: McDonnell-Douglas DC-9
Operator: Jugoslovenski Aero transport
Cause of Crash: Bombing
Crash Site: Hinterhermsdorf , East Germany
Passengers & Crew :28
Fatalities: 27

Vesna Vulović was a flight attendant onboard when a bomb went off at the altitude of 33,000 ft. (10,050 meters). The terrorist act was attributed to Croatian Ustashe terrorists. The explosion tore the jet into several pieces in mid-air. The wreckage fell through the sky for three minutes before striking a frozen mountainside. A German man upon arriving at the crash found Vesna lying half outside of the plane, with another crew member’s body on top of her, and a serving cart pinned against her body. The man was a medic in the second world war, and did what he could for her until further help arrived. Vesna’s injuries included a fractured skull, two broken legs and three broken vertebrae, which left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued working for JAT at a desk job. It was discovered later her schedule had been mixed up with that of another flight attendant named Vesna, and she was subsequently placed on the wrong flight.

Vesna still holds the Guinness World Record for the highest fall survived without a parachute, at 33,330 feet. She is considered a national heroine throughout the former Yugoslavia.
 
Lupie said:
This is a bit off topic, but,

I just read that IAF Capt. Assaf Ramon, son of the late Col. Ilan Ramon, was killed when his F-16 crashed during a training flight yesterday. Very sad news.

L.
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I am certain that most of us who post here have the deepest sympathies for the Ramon family and thier loss.
 
Dave Rogers said:
To be fair to truthers, some of the newspapers get this wrong too.
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Look at the date please: March, 19, 2002

And now:
Monday, March 11, 2002: launching of book The Big Lie.
w w w.effroyable-imposture.net/revue-en.php

The french original:
w w w.scribd.com/doc/4673074/Thierry-Meyssan-Leffroyable-Imposture-NonOcr-11-Septembre-Attentat-Bidon-Pentagone-Imperialisme-Usa,
(p. 57)

Voila, Monsieur Hoax again.

I dont know any reference before this.
So I have an idea, where the desinfo came from again :rolleyes:....
 
waypastvne said:
Another sole survivor:


Date of Crash: January 26, 1972
Aircraft type: McDonnell-Douglas DC-9
Operator: Jugoslovenski Aero transport
Cause of Crash: Bombing
Crash Site: Hinterhermsdorf , East Germany
Passengers & Crew :28
Fatalities: 27

Vesna Vulović was a flight attendant onboard when a bomb went off at the altitude of 33,000 ft. (10,050 meters). The terrorist act was attributed to Croatian Ustashe terrorists. The explosion tore the jet into several pieces in mid-air. The wreckage fell through the sky for three minutes before striking a frozen mountainside. A German man upon arriving at the crash found Vesna lying half outside of the plane, with another crew member’s body on top of her, and a serving cart pinned against her body. The man was a medic in the second world war, and did what he could for her until further help arrived. Vesna’s injuries included a fractured skull, two broken legs and three broken vertebrae, which left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued working for JAT at a desk job. It was discovered later her schedule had been mixed up with that of another flight attendant named Vesna, and she was subsequently placed on the wrong flight.

Vesna still holds the Guinness World Record for the highest fall survived without a parachute, at 33,330 feet. She is considered a national heroine throughout the former Yugoslavia.
Click to expand...


In January 2009 German ARD radio correspondent Peter Hornung-Andersen together with German journalist Tim van Beveren and Czech journalist Pavel Theiner published a report based on newly found documents, mainly from the Czech Civil Aviation Authority and the Czech Republic's National Archive, concluding that it was "extremely probable" that the plane had been shot down by mistake by the Czechoslovak Air Force.[6] They claim that the plane broke up only a few hundred meters above the ground, not the 10,000 metres claimed by the official investigation.[7] This claim was backed by evidence, e.g. secret reports in which several eye witnesses said that they saw Vesna's plane flying below the clouds before it crashed and maps drawn by Czechoslovak investigators showing that the largest parts of the plane were found in an area rather small which would not have been the case if the plane broke apart in 10,000 metres altitude. This is shown on a disaster area map which was published by Czech Republic's National Archive : No. 1 and 2 show fuselage and cabin being less than 1 kilometre apart. The Czech Civil Aviation Authority nevertheless issued a statement denying the claim without addressing the evidence.[citation needed] The original statement has given rise to more recent reports.[7] Vulović, despite having no memory of the crash or the flight after boarding,[6] has challenged these new theories, denying the claim that the plane descended to a much lower altitude while attempting a forced landing.[citation needed] A representative of Guinness World Records stated that "it seems that at the time Guinness was duped by this swindle just like the rest of the media."[6

from wikipedia.

lxxx
 
AJM8125 said:
Classic truther logic. It's impossible to recover evidence from a crash site but it is possible to wire up 3 high rise buildings with explosives with nobody being the wiser. :)
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.......two that were 3x the size of the world record and another almost 2x....
 
waypastvne said:
Another sole survivor:


Date of Crash: January 26, 1972
Aircraft type: McDonnell-Douglas DC-9
Operator: Jugoslovenski Aero transport
Cause of Crash: Bombing
Crash Site: Hinterhermsdorf , East Germany
Passengers & Crew :28
Fatalities: 27

Vesna Vulović was a flight attendant onboard when a bomb went off at the altitude of 33,000 ft. (10,050 meters). The terrorist act was attributed to Croatian Ustashe terrorists. The explosion tore the jet into several pieces in mid-air. The wreckage fell through the sky for three minutes before striking a frozen mountainside. A German man upon arriving at the crash found Vesna lying half outside of the plane, with another crew member’s body on top of her, and a serving cart pinned against her body. The man was a medic in the second world war, and did what he could for her until further help arrived. Vesna’s injuries included a fractured skull, two broken legs and three broken vertebrae, which left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued working for JAT at a desk job. It was discovered later her schedule had been mixed up with that of another flight attendant named Vesna, and she was subsequently placed on the wrong flight.

Vesna still holds the Guinness World Record for the highest fall survived without a parachute, at 33,330 feet. She is considered a national heroine throughout the former Yugoslavia.
Click to expand...

Several sole survivor crashes
http://www.airsafe.com/events/survivor.htm
 
nicepants said:
I guess truthers must believe that the shuttle columbia crash was an inside job too, because there were plenty of pieces of paper which survived that, including a journal belonging to one of the astronauts.
Click to expand...

As well two fully playable CDs from Deep Purple "Machine Head" and "Purpendicular" a third "Down To Earth" Although intact was damaged. All three are part of a commerative plaque at NASA, which is going to be donated to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Kalpana Chawla, was a mission specialist and unabashed Deep Purple, requesting the crew to be woken with the iconic "Space Truck'in" during her flight.

Steve Morse and the rest of the band where horrified to hear of her death and wrote the song "Contact Lost" as a memorial which is the last track on the "Bananna" album
 
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