unassisited childbirth-what do you think?

Is some entity in the medical world trying to push C-sections on women??? Cause they really should have told my OB! I was in hospital-induced non-progressive labor for over 24 almost 16* hours. With pre-eclampsia. Ended up with a C-section, anyway.

I don't see a push (pun unintended) towards C-sections. When my wife had my son, she was in labor for 72 hours (yes, you read that right!). At the end of it, instead of delivering, she undilated (is that a word?). The doctors gave her the option of having a C-section or going home and coming back when her body decided it was ready.

The operation was a few hours later.
 
You, sir, are a dangerously ill-informed idiot.

And you are an ill-informed idiot who can't read. The OP not only quoted someone else, and mentioned the "alarm bells" and asked for opinions, he didn't endorse the quotes.
 
When my wife had my son, she was in labor for 72 hours (yes, you read that right!).

I think one reason for the new non-medical paradigm of labor is to try to avoid experiences like these. The point I'm making is that the new stuff can be interpreted Fosteristically, and does not require any of the woo to be accepted.
 
I think one reason for the new non-medical paradigm of labor is to try to avoid experiences like these. The point I'm making is that the new stuff can be interpreted Fosteristically, and does not require any of the woo to be accepted.

How do you think a non-medical paradigm of labour would have shortened her labour?

Linda
 
I think one reason for the new non-medical paradigm of labor is to try to avoid experiences like these. The point I'm making is that the new stuff can be interpreted Fosteristically, and does not require any of the woo to be accepted.

It seems to me that those are the very experiences that most call for a medical "paradigm of labor," and perhaps the reason that that approach became common in the first place. After all, once upon a time, labor was always non-medical, and had it not been dangerous and painful and occasionally complicated, it would always have been.

Although I think we agree substantially on some issues, I still wonder where you get your data; why you think that medical labor typically adds pain to the experience which would not be a part of the experience in a non-medical setting; and why you think that so little has been done to improve the birthing experience while others of us have experiences that contradict that notion.

The word "fosteristically" is new to me. Can you elucidate?
 
My only experience is the birth of my two sons. The hospital birthing rooms were fairly comfortable for both me and my wife. I don't see that either of us would have been more comfortable at home.

Personally I am grateful that my wife and children had the support of a hospital whether it was needed or not.
 
I supposed it's been covered, but define "unassisted".
Squatting in the woods?
It would probably cut down on the "passing on" of certain genes.
Mother/child deaths etc.
So, is accepting medical (or any) help in birthing good for our species?
Good question.
 
Natural childbirth is great for animals who have not developed radically modified shoulders and an oversized head on a weak, floppy neck. Human development of the brain and shoulders came at a price. We are flimsy at birth, and many things simply go wrong. Luckily, we also came from species who got tremendous enjoyment from sex, so we kept plodding right along in spite of 10% infant mortality in childbirth.
Not everything which is natural is immune from the improvement of science and intelligent and creative people. Evolutionary pressures lead to developments that work sufficiently, not perfectly.
 
It seems to me that those are the very experiences that most call for a medical "paradigm of labor," and perhaps the reason that that approach became common in the first place. After all, once upon a time, labor was always non-medical, and had it not been dangerous and painful and occasionally complicated, it would always have been.

Medical techniques can solve problems or cause problems. Ultimately it is the patient who has to be aware enough of herself to decide which is which.

Although I think we agree substantially on some issues, I still wonder where you get your data; why you think that medical labor typically adds pain to the experience which would not be a part of the experience in a non-medical setting; and why you think that so little has been done to improve the birthing experience while others of us have experiences that contradict that notion.

From what I've read about non-medical labor, it is said to be "pleasurable", whatever that means. Whatever these women are feeling, it must be demonstrated that the feeling can occur in a medical setting also. Otherwise, more and more women will risk the death of their babies for it.

I'm aware that there are improvements in medical birth settings, but I didn't know they were so popular. I'm glad.

The word "fosteristically" is new to me. Can you elucidate?

I can't find the page where I heard of Foster. A philosopher, John Foster, I think. I'm referring to his idea that it's possible to on the one hand accept the existence of the human mind, and on the other hand refuse to speculate on what it consists of.
 
Not everything which is natural is immune from the improvement of science and intelligent and creative people.

There are also stupid and creative people. And if they find that ignorance is bliss, it is up to the intelligent and creative people to copy the bliss to a smart alternative.
 
I don't think many people who have a "non-medical" labour would describe it as pleasurable. My sister has had a home birth (attended by midwives of course) and she certainly didn't describe it as pleasureable (I won't repeat her actual descriptions...). Nevertheless, she did find it a lot less unpleasant, less inhibiting and more comfortable than her previous normal hospital birth (she had also previously had a C Section due to breech) and is planning a home birth for baby number 4.
 
My opinion of this, as an L&D nurse of 16 years: there is too much medical intervention in childbirth. I do not advocate home births (though I do have friends who have done it with no complications) but I also do not advocate elective inductions (so you can tell your family when to fly in from out of town) and elective c-sections (so you don't have "bladdar" problems down the road). Doctors are scheduling most labors during the day for purely selfish reasons-convienence for them. An elective induction of labor is NOT convinent for the mom or baby-more interventions equals more fetal distress, more c-sections for failure to progess (at the end of the day when the doc is ready to go home), more epidurals, more vacuum/forceps,...I could go on and on. An elective primary c-section sounds good on paper but the next go round equals more placenta previa, ruptured uterus, placenta abruption. But they don't tell the moms that. Also, studies have shown just being pregnant can cause most bladder problems-it has nothing to do with vaginal delivery. Fetal monitors have not been shown to ever save a baby's life-they only cause more c-sections. I can't post links but do your own google search for "fetal monitor research". When I work on the weekend (like today)-the moms come in in active labor, get an epidural or not, keep the monitor on or not, depending on their preference and have quick smooth deliveries. On weekdays, it is a long frustrating ordeal for all!
 
When I work on the weekend (like today)-the moms come in in active labor, get an epidural or not, keep the monitor on or not, depending on their preference and have quick smooth deliveries. On weekdays, it is a long frustrating ordeal for all!

Beaumont?
 
Unassisted childbirth seems dangerously stupid to me, and not something I would ever advocate.

I had my four children at home with qualified midwives in attendance (a doctor turned up to my first labour but left before the birth saying it would be hours yet, how wrong she was) and that was right for me, but it wouldn't be right for every woman. For me, part of feeling confident enough to have a home birth was knowing that there was a hospital close by if I needed to transfer, and being able to trust my midwife to know when/if a transfer was appropriate.

My second labour didn't have time to be painful (and I've never heard of Waldorf), the others were at times.
 
(and I've never heard of Waldorf)

Waldorf education, or Waldorf schools, are an outgrowth of Anthroposophy, a [here vocabulary fails] movement/philosophy/religion/cult/lifestyle more or less invented by Rudolph Steiner. They were new age before the new age started. Angels and fairies and crystals and rainbows, homeopathy and herbs and candles and planting by the moon, they've been there and wore the t-shirt out 50 years ago.

Anthroposophy is a mystical, sort of christian, elaboration of theosophy, and involves itself in many areas of living. Waldorf schools are one of the more visible areas, because their stress on creativity and a number of new-agey ideas has made them popular with parents who do not look very deeply into what education is actually for.

Buried in the literature of Waldorf education are some pretty good ideas, and one must give Steiner some credit, despite his anti-intellectual bent and many other highly questionable ideas. He was hired in the early 20th century to set up a school for the children of workers at a German cigarette factory, and the resulting school was apparently successful and rather revolutionary in its day. Unfortunately, when Steiner died not long after, it seems that all his ideas, which were in a process of development and change, were engraved on stone, and as a result, a large part of the curriculum and approach now used in Waldorf schools in the U.S. appears to be what would have been appropriate for a working class German child in 1920. The idea of creativity does not seem to have carried over to the interpretation of Steiner's educational philosophy.

One of the other offshoots of Anthroposophy is biodynamic farming/gardening, which is basically good old fashioned organic gardening with a frosting of almost insanely nonsensical spiritual flummery which is fortunately not harmful to plants. But because much of the biodynamic approach is not only good organic practice, but a conscientious approach to the work, anthroposophists tend to grow really good veggies.

I could go on and on. I actually have a certain affection for anthroposophists, who tend to be pretty benign outside the classroom. (I should add that my first wife was from an "anthro" background). Anthroposophy itself escapes being a cult, I think, because although membership in its inner circles is hard to attain, they do not proselytize, do not steal your money, and are not vindictive to those who leave the fold. Despite highly questionable beliefs and an unfortunate attachment to many woo-woo ideas including homeopathy, they also stand for peace, social responsibility, art, conservation, and other very good ideas.

One of the more beneficial specialties of anthroposophy is the care of the mentally handicapped, and if you do a little googling for "camphill movement" you will find some information on that end. As a conscientious objector back in the 60's I did my alternative service at Camphill Village. My (now late, as well as ex-) father-in-law founded Triform, which is aimed at training persons of a higher functional level than the other Camphill communities.

The above is not in any way intended to be an endorsement of Anthroposophy, which is generally nonsense, or of Waldorf education, which, at least as far as I've seen it and its results, is a crock.
 
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