UN to Canada: "No seat for you!"

[Captain.Sassy]

Anyone care about this?

Not too surprised myself, though I wonder how much Harper's repeated (and trumpeted) 'snubs' to the UN mattered, vs. other factors.

also lol @ the tories claiming Iggy jinxed them.

 

[WildCat]

Uh, what?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Uh, what?

Why do you hate Canada?

 

[Pardalis]

With the Arab states at the UN, that's no surprise.

 

[Wolfman]

Harper has snubbed the UN, has lessened Canada's international participation in key projects, and wasn't even interested in getting a position on the security council until the last minute.

The man is freakin' idiot. His entire foreign policy seems to consist of saying "I'm not interested, we don't need that"...and then at the last minute jumping in and saying, "Oh, yeah, we want to be involved too!"...and then acting mystified or offended when others snub him.

* Item 1 -- he snubbed China for years, to the point of actually setting dates for diplomatic meetings, and then canceling. Then he suddenly realized that Canada's economy is desperately dependent on China, and he went crawling to China essentially begging for their support (and got publicly 'spanked' when the Premier told him he'd taken too long to make his overtures).

* Item 2 -- While the U.S., Australia, and many Asian nations were negotiating a major economic treaty, Harper said that Canada wasn't interested. Then, when he realized that he was being left out in the cold and missing out on a great opportunity, he jumped in and said, "We want to play, too!". The other nations said, "Too bad."

* Item 3 -- the whole UN Security Council fiasco.

Then let's not ignore how he's done everything in his power to decrease transparency, fighting tooth-and-nail against public information requests, to the point of creating entirely new policies to further decrease the public's ability to find out what the hell their own gov't is doing.

The fact that Canadians apparently continue to support him (if we had an election now, his party would likely win) mystifies me almost as much as Americans voting Bush into a second term.

 

[Wolfman]

With the Arab states at the UN, that's no surprise.

Considering that the three countries in contention were Germany (who won with no problem), Canada, and Portugal (who handily beat out Canada)...if the Arab states were such a particularly significant factor, I don't quite understand why they'd want Germany and Portugal over Canada.

No, this isn't some grand Muslim conspiracy. It is simply the story of a government that did too little, too late. Once again, Harper played a crappy game, and then when he lost, tried to blame it on someone else.

 

[Jimbo07]

The fact that Canadians apparently continue to support him (if we had an election now, his party would likely win) mystifies me

You and me both.

It is said that his decision to get a coffee rather address the U.N. played well domestically, because he's, "a man of the people."

 

[ProBonoShill]

Is the UN even relevant anymore?

Canada's role in NATO and NORAD are more worthy of attention IMO.

 

[Wolfman]

Is the UN even relevant anymore?

Canada's role in NATO and NORAD are more worthy of attention IMO.

Actually, Canada needs to get off its ass, and start getting more involved in Asia-Pacific organizations. That's where things are really happening.

 

[Pardalis]

Actually, Canada needs to get off its ass, and start getting more involved in Asia-Pacific organizations. That's where things are really happening.

It's not because you're there that we should care. I know you have an inflated sense of your importance but this is ridiculous.

No, this isn't some grand Muslim conspiracy. It is simply the story of a government that did too little, too late. Once again, Harper played a crappy game, and then when he lost, tried to blame it on someone else.

Canada's support of Israel and the its firm stance against Islamic terror played a part, I guess these two issues are big no-noes now at the UN. Now one has to be pro-Hamas and not fight extremists to be admitted.

 

[ProBonoShill]

Actually, Canada needs to get off its ass, and start getting more involved in Asia-Pacific organizations. That's where things are really happening.

While that may be true, not sure what "is really happening" though, my main concern is our neighbours to the south and the state of their economy.

It's not because you're there that we should care. I know you have an inflated sense of your importance but this is ridiculous.




Canada's support of Israel and the its firm stance against Islamic terror played a part, I guess these two issues are big no-noes now at the UN. Now one has to be pro-Hamas and not fight extremists to be admitted.

Sad isn't it?

 

[Wolfman]

It's not because you're there that we should care. I know you have an inflated sense of your importance but this is ridiculous.

Huh?

You do have some awareness of Asian issues, don't you? I mean, small things like the fact that Asia (not just China) is the new economic powerhouse? That countries like China, India, Japan, and Korea all carry significant economic and political weight?

The U.S. is getting very actively involved with building alliances and strategic partnerships in Asia (again, not just China)...while Canada's sitting on its ass doing very little at all.

Canada's support of Israel and the its firm stance against Islamic terror played a part, I guess these two issues are big no-noes now at the UN. Now one has to be pro-Hamas and not fight extremists to be admitted.

Last I checked, Germany is much more strongly anti-Hamas than Portugal...yet Germany got in on the first round, with no problem whatsoever. Besides vague insinuations and appeals to bias, do you have any actual evidence to support this contention?

 

[Wolfman]

While that may be true, not sure what "is really happening" though, my main concern is our neighbours to the south and the state of their economy.

It is because of our short-sightedness and overreliance on the U.S. economy that we're in this situation in the first place. Canada has had many years to diversify and spread its economic interests more widely...but we've largely remained insular.

And if your main concern really is our neighbors to the south...shouldn't the fact that they are aggressively building and expanding their Asian interests be an indication that we should be doing the same damn thing?

 

[lionking]

Australia's looking for a seat on the SC now.

As far as I'm concerned, a non-permanent membership of the SC is worthless.

 

[Wolfman]

Australia's looking for a seat on the SC now.

As far as I'm concerned, a non-permanent membership of the SC is worthless.

I pretty much agree.

What is stupid is Harper first saying its not important; then suddenly deciding it is, and spending tons of money on a last-ditch effort to get a seat; and then trying to blame his failure on the opposition party.

 

[KDLarsen]

if the Arab states were such a particularly significant factor, I don't quite understand why they'd want Germany and Portugal over Canada.

Given that the UAE is anything but impressed with the Canadian government at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised if they had been talking to their fellow Arabs about ignoring Canada.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

It is because of our short-sightedness and overreliance on the U.S. economy that we're in this situation in the first place. Canada has had many years to diversify and spread its economic interests more widely...but we've largely remained insular.

I agree.

As far as I'm concerned, a non-permanent membership of the SC is worthless.

You don't think there's any opportunity to influence p-5 voting? Also, the p-5 have a veto, but you need a security council majority for most decisions and a supermajority for some things too, so votes of non-permanent members do matter in some instances... to the extent that the UN matters, that is...

 

[Segnosaur]

* Item 1 -- he snubbed China for years, to the point of actually setting dates for diplomatic meetings, and then canceling. Then he suddenly realized that Canada's economy is desperately dependent on China, and he went crawling to China essentially begging for their support (and got publicly 'spanked' when the Premier told him he'd taken too long to make his overtures).

Ummm.... first of all, part of the problem with Canada's relations with China were due to Harper stating "...I don't think Canadians want us to sell out important Canadian values -- our belief in democracy, freedom, human rights...They don't want us to sell that out to the almighty dollar.'' (See: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CTVNewsAt11/20061115/china_snub_061114/) Kind of ironic that its a conservative politician who brings up the issue of human rights and is willing to sacrifice potential trade due to it.

Secondly, while it is true that China is a major trading partner with Canada, Canada has a huge trade deficit with China (well, at least according to the last figures I saw, dated 2007). And much of what Canada sells are raw materials (which are fungible and can potentially be sold anywhere.) I do think global trade is good, but when the trade imbalance is that high, there may be issues.

Then let's not ignore how he's done everything in his power to decrease transparency, fighting tooth-and-nail against public information requests, to the point of creating entirely new policies to further decrease the public's ability to find out what the hell their own gov't is doing.

Ummm... first of all, that's more or less an internal issue. Its not like we're sticking people in gulags, so its not like it should be considered a major international issue.

And while the government has been fighting certain releases of information, its also brought in legislation to improve transparency. So, things are basically a wash: better in some ways, worse i others.

The fact that Canadians apparently continue to support him (if we had an election now, his party would likely win) mystifies me almost as much as Americans voting Bush into a second term.

Ummm... why should it mystify you? For all the complaints from various people complaining about "neo-con" and "religious right" policies, for the most part they've been fairly reasonable in their actions. I'm certainly not happy with some of the things they've done, but in some cases the alternative (Liberal or NDP party) would actually be worse.

 

[Praktik]

Why do you hate Canada?

WildCat hates us for our freedoms...

 

[Praktik]

Ummm.... first of all, part of the problem with Canada's relations with China were due to Harper stating "...I don't think Canadians want us to sell out important Canadian values -- our belief in democracy, freedom, human rights...They don't want us to sell that out to the almighty dollar.'' (See: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CTVNewsAt11/20061115/china_snub_061114/) Kind of ironic that its a conservative politician who brings up the issue of human rights and is willing to sacrifice potential trade due to it.

Except that with China (especially China) hectoring from Western countries on human rights has achieved little more than irritating their leaders. We all know true change will come from within, not because Harper chose to grandstand on human rights in China in venues directed at domestic Canadian consumption.

I'm actually of the opinion that NOT speaking loudly and publicly about human rights - while fostering increased trade/cultural relations with China - is the best way to achieve progress in human rights there. Its through the development of influence with Chinese leaders that we can ever hope to plant a seed in their minds - when we grandstand, their leadership just stonewalls us and yes, could result in trade wars that aren't good for anybody (but mostly us). But even then, the growing middle class of China is going to be the place that drives this change. I sincerely doubt any moral pressure from outside would ever make an impact - after all many nations need China more than it needs them, and its this essential power dynamic that makes us impotent.

There's a conceit in the Western world that we can remake the world according to our values - but in China the emptiness of this conceit becomes clear. In this case, it's a back-slapping form of political pablum designed far more for domestic consumption than it is out of any real chance of changing things in a country over which no actor, even the mighty US of A, has any real political influence over their domestic affairs.