Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[timhau]

"I don't want to believe it, so it isn't true." Highest form of critical thinking.

 

[magellan]

Is there a specific reason why you forgot to mention who else is sending troops to that neighborhood?

Where did the BUK system come from that shot down MH17, and who shot it down, according to the BND?

 

[carlitos]

Which CE is posting in this thread - the one who denied that Russian troops were in the Ukraine, or the one who is cheering them on?

 

[jimbob]

Which CE is posting in this thread - the one who denied that Russian troops were in the Ukraine, or the one who is cheering them on?

The sign of a first class mind. The ability to hold and reconcile two mutually contradictory opinions at the same time.

 

[magellan]

The sign of a first class mind. The ability to hold and reconcile two mutually contradictory opinions at the same time.

Like paying your gasbill while having irrefutable proof that the guys you just sent 1,5 billion $ to are illegally invading your country?

 

[uke2se]

Like paying your gasbill while having irrefutable proof that the guys you just sent 1,5 billion $ to are illegally invading your country?

No, nothing like that, as those two thoughts aren't contradictory.

 

[timhau]

Where did the BUK system come from that shot down MH17, and who shot it down, according to the BND?

I know it's hard to keep track of all the questions when you're constructing an alternate reality, but here's a reminder:

Is there a specific reason why you forgot to mention who else is sending troops to that neighborhood?

 

[magellan]

I know it's hard to keep track of all the questions when you're constructing an alternate reality, but here's a reminder:

(It was an Ukrainian BUK, captured by seperatists (This alternate reality was constructed by the notoriously anti american and pro russian BND))

Where was a cinema burnt down for showing a gay film? (Kiew)

How many T78s, which where never exported according to one guy (The quote in the reuters story isn't a new quote. They just requoted him from last summer), despite being in use in a lot of other countries, did Ukraine inherit from the USSR? (1000)

Did russia become the second nation to use a nuclear device in an armed conflict, using a tactical nuke at donetsk airport?

Any proof for any other country sending troops into the region? Men with beards? T78s? Ukrainian BUKs? Russian soldiers captured in the vicinity of Donetsk? (Which one? there are 2. One is a russian border town.)

 

[carlitos]

Here's the question again. Feel free to ignore it again.

Is there a specific reason why you forgot to mention who else is sending troops to that neighborhood?

 

[magellan]

Here's the question again. Feel free to ignore it again.

I adressed it. Reread the last line of my previous post. I would be most curious if there is any new "evidence" I hadn't heard of.

 

[jimbob]

(It was an Ukrainian BUK, captured by seperatists (This alternate reality was constructed by the notoriously anti american and pro russian BND))

Where was a cinema burnt down for showing a gay film? (Kiew)

How many T78s, which where never exported according to one guy (The quote in the reuters story isn't a new quote. They just requoted him from last summer), despite being in use in a lot of other countries, did Ukraine inherit from the USSR? (1000)

Did russia become the second nation to use a nuclear device in an armed conflict, using a tactical nuke at donetsk airport?

Any proof for any other country sending troops into the region? Men with beards? T78s? Ukrainian BUKs? Russian soldiers captured in the vicinity of Donetsk? (Which one? there are 2. One is a russian border town.)

There seems to be a lot of straw in that post.
"(It was an Ukrainian BUK, captured by seperatists (This alternate reality was constructed by the notoriously anti american and pro russian BND))
"

So it was fired by separatists then?​

"How many T78s, which where never exported according to one guy"

T78? I don't believe that I have come across that - not that that means much, but google doesn't help either. A particular non-export version of the T72, has been shown (wrecked) on the ground in Ukraine

This is after the foreign correspondents for the Telegraph and the Guardian saw an armoured column heading towards and then crossing the borders.

]

On the BBC radio (Today programme) I have just heard a journalist from The Daily Telegraph saying that he saw about 20 APCs crossing from Russia under cover of darkness.

Corroboration from Guardian journalist

The Guardian saw a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers, supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles with official Russian military plates, travelling towards the border near the Russian town of Donetsk – about 200km away from Donetsk, Ukraine.

The Guardian saw it 10km from the border, the Telegraph saw it crossing the border.

Telegraph version of the story

While it was not immediately clear whether all of that convoy crossed the border, The Telegraph did see a substantial number of vehicles pass through check point manned by gunmen after shadowing the convoy down narrow country lanes near the frontier.

While the force did not seem to be a substantial invasion force, it confirms that military supplies are moving across the border. While the APCs carried no visible markings the fuel tankers and soft-skinned trucks in the convoy bore black Russian military number plates.

Business insider has a good synthesis of the story form both correspondents

Then there are the stories about Russian troops who have died in fighting, and the response of the authorities to the families, like this from the BBC:

Either this is one amazingly intricate conspiracy, or Russia is lying - which they did about their troops being active in the Crimea before the rigged referendum.​

"Did russia become the second nation to use a nuclear device in an armed conflict, using a tactical nuke at donetsk airport?"

I don't believe anyone here has proposed that. I wouldn't be too surprised to see that someone has suggested it, but nobody serious.
​

"Russian soldiers captured in the vicinity of Donetsk? (Which one? there are 2. One is a russian border town.)"

And they were about 20km from the Russian border, which is fairly significant distance, for presumably elite troops near a sensitive border. Unlike the Ukrainian troops that had been attacked in their territory and forced over the border.​

So I will grant you that some Ukrainian nationalists are rather unsavoury.

 

[timhau]

I adressed it. Reread the last line of my previous post. I would be most curious if there is any new "evidence" I hadn't heard of.

You mean "evidence" from Russia Today or some other source good enough for the edgy hip kids? No, probably not.

 

[jimbob]

Like paying your gasbill while having irrefutable proof that the guys you just sent 1,5 billion $ to are illegally invading your country?

That's being caught by the short and curlies. Russia didn't need to use military power - but the fact that they did will probably prove counterproductive in the medium term.

 

[McHrozni]

And they were about 20km from the Russian border, which is fairly significant distance, for presumably elite troops near a sensitive border. Unlike the Ukrainian troops that had been attacked in their territory and forced over the border.​

From what I gather, they were also on foot, going to a four day march. They were "straying" across the border, parallel to the border, for at least four hours. If they weren't walking directly in the wrong direction, they "strayed" for even longer.

Either the "straying across the border" is a farce, or Russian elite troops are so incompetent they can't even read a map, or use something as highly sophisticated as GPS/Glonass, that has become a staple among grandmothers elsewhere.
I do wonder which option Magellan would prefer. His replies so far indicate he thinks Russian elite paratroopers are less competent in familiar territory with equipment than junior boy scouts are in unfamiliar territory without equipment.

McHrozni

 

[carlitos]

I adressed it. Reread the last line of my previous post. I would be most curious if there is any new "evidence" I hadn't heard of.

Here is a link. Have a look. They estimate 400 Russian casualties in the Ukraine.

 

[jimbob]

Good article in the Gruniad:

Russia Today: why western cynics lap up Putin’s TV poison

Vladimir Putin is the world’s corrupt policeman. He finds the seediness in every country and nurtures it. On some occasions, he exploits cynicism and paranoia at once; on others, he banks it for later use. Often he appears to fan corruption for the hell of it because that is all he knows how to do.

The disbelief that oozes through much of public debate in our time is rarely in the service of any cause, however. It is radical indifference; a furious determination to condemn accompanied by an equally determined refusal to commit. Like Russell Brand, millions of people don’t want to say what change they want to see, because a commitment would force them to take a position and lay them open to attack.

They aren’t cynics but pseudo-sophisticated innocents. They shout “liar” automatically at everyone who tries to rule over them – and doubtless they are right more often than not. But to dispense with the search for proof – the need to demonstrate that the politician or banker is lying – leaves the supposedly wised-up open to capture by cults, conspiracy theorists and Russia.

Russia Today’s second mission is to spread conspiracy theories that help Russian power and provide sensational audience-grabbing stories – in every sense of the word. If you have heard that the Ukrainians who oppose Putin are fascists, that there is a land called “Novorossiya” in south-east Ukraine that historically belonged to Moscow, or that Assad did not gas Syrians, the odds are the story will have started on Russia Today.

 

[carlitos]

Thanks for posting that. I wish that our resident rote Socke would read the article with an open mind.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

How many T78s

There is no such thing as a Russian T78. I'm a "rivet counter".

Here are a couple photos of retired anti aircraft systems that I took at the St Petersberg Artillery Academy a year ago......so I could count the rivets.

 

[jimbob]

Russian tanks and troops crossing into Ukraine, says Nato commander

Nato’s chief military commander has said that columns of Russian tanks, artillery and troops have been spotted crossing the border into Ukraine over the last two days, amid fears of a renewal of all-out conflict in the war-torn east of the country.

Moscow has denied that any columns have crossed the border and challenged Nato to produce evidence.

In August the Guardian witnessed a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Russia denied sending in troops and armour in August but said some Russians may have been there as volunteers during their holidays. A large number of Russian soldiers are among the dead in the conflict.

On Tuesday the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the crisis management group that has been monitoring events, reported that armoured columns were on the move.

“Across the last two days we have seen the same thing that OSCE is reporting. We have seen columns of Russian equipment – primarily Russian tanks, Russian artillery, Russian air defence systems and Russian combat troops – entering into Ukraine,” Breedlove said.

He added: “We do not have a good picture at this time of how many. We agree that there are multiple columns that we have seen.”

ETA: However there is a perfectly reasonable* explanation

The Russian defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, said the country was keeping its troops on combat alert because of an increased foreign presence on its border, referring to Nato forces conducting extra training exercises in the Baltic states and elsewhere.

*If you believe that Russia is a victim of NATO aggression..

 

[jimbob]

And this from the BBC

Vehicles apparently used to transport soldiers' bodies have been seen crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border, monitors from Europe's security body have said.

The OSCE monitors said in one case a vehicle marked "Cargo 200" - Russia's military code for soldiers killed in action - crossed from Russia into Ukraine on Tuesday and later returned.