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UKIP win Clacton by-election by a landslide

And the guy who has worked all his life to afford that house loses the right to pass it on intact to his children, whereas the same guy, in the identical house, 200 miles away, can leave it to his kids untouched. Yeah, I get your idea of fairness now.......

Why is this a right ?

The children have received a windfall in excess of £325k which gives them a range of options including selling the house, paying the inheritance tax due an trousering the rest or coming up with the inheritance tax and keeping the asset worth in excess of £325k. In either case they're still well ahead financially of the family who inherited an asset worth less than £325k.

Inter-generational wealth transfer is one of the key barriers to social and economic mobility because it ensures that the wealthy stay wealthy.
 
Do they give you any reasons? Would the UK be then subject to import duty and so forth?

Because we're all in the E.U. then a lot of the paperwork associated with ensuring that I have the right employment practices, guarantee the human rights of my employees and conduct business in a fair and legal way is un-necessary which makes the procurement process much easier.

If we were out of the EU then they'd have to do all of this which means that they'd prefer EU-based suppliers and/or I'd now be competing with the rest of the world (some parts of which charge significantly less than I can).
 
And you should stop with the patronising tone. There many good alternatives to the death duty question, as you should know.........not having it at all being one. That's fair to everyone, and is what I advocate. A reasonable alternative is to have it set with such a ceiling that it only catches the genuinely rich, say, £1,000,000 estates and above. Or if fairness is really what you seek (it clearly isn't with most here who only want it as a way of punishing people for being notionally better off than them), you could apply it universally (ie no lower limit), but at a much lower rate.......say 1% of the entire estate's value, rather than 40% of everything over £325,000 as at present.

You're proposing either a higher limit (which doesn't really address your issue, it just removes you and your heirs from the picture tax-wise - the typical view that other people should be taxed) or a flat tax rate which is regressive, i.e. it places a greater burden of tax on those less able to pay.

BTW it's not punishing people for being well off any more than having multiple income tax rates, it's trying to sure that the burden of taxation falls on those who are most able to bear it.
 
And you should stop with the patronising tone. There many good alternatives to the death duty question, as you should know.........not having it at all being one. That's fair to everyone, and is what I advocate. A reasonable alternative is to have it set with such a ceiling that it only catches the genuinely rich, say, £1,000,000 estates and above. Or if fairness is really what you seek (it clearly isn't with most here who only want it as a way of punishing people for being notionally better off than them), you could apply it universally (ie no lower limit), but at a much lower rate.......say 1% of the entire estate's value, rather than 40% of everything over £325,000 as at present.
Previously you were saying
Well, if it can be afforded I agree wholeheartedly with the first of those
i.e. UKIP policy to abolish inheritance tax. And your reason was that it panders to jealousy. Now you're saying, well obviously you should ignore my principled objections that it is a sin to levy it, and act as if I was discussing how to improve it. But of course I really want it abolished.

That being so, how can I discuss with you measures to improve a device which in your honest opinion simply panders to jealousy and stifles aspiration? If these are your objections then no amendment is rationally discussable.

Sorry, I don't intend a patronising tone, but I can't see any way past this objection to the fiscal principle involved, so that a detailed discussion of the procedures of the tax might take place.

Anyway you have stated your agreement with UKIP on this point and you know they won't tinker with it. They will abolish it, along with "green" subsidies, "political correctness", "European human rights legislation" and anything else that stands in the way of their brutalist and xenophobic elitism.

We know what is in store for us in Scotland if UKIP gains influence. Thus spake their former Scottish leader.
The Scots are subsidy junkies whingeing like a trampled bagpipe as they wait for their next fix of English taxpayers' money.
Christopher Monckton and his support for subsidies to Scotland, Sunday Mail, April 16, 1995. See also: http://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton
 
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.........Inter-generational wealth transfer is one of the key barriers to social and economic mobility because it ensures that the wealthy stay wealthy.

I simply don't accept this. This is a mantra trotted out by people who don't think. Why on earth does one person or family being wealthy prevent anyone else becoming wealthy? So blinking what if the wealthy stay wealthy? Jeez, this is like the stupid argument you hear against same sex marriage.......those guys over there getting married undermine heterosexual marriage. No, what other people do does not affect your own marriage/ life chances. What does affect your kids' chances are having a decent attitude to education, and no amount of taxation is going to affect that.

My above answer doesn't prejudice my previous argument that this tax is currently applied to those who aren't wealthy.
 
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..........Now you're saying, well obviously you should ignore my principled objections that it is a sin to levy it, and act as if I was discussing how to improve it. But of course I really want it abolished.......

I love it when you put words in my mouth Craig.

In principle I want rid of this silly tax. In principle I want to tax things that we want to get rid of, like pollution. In principle, I don't want to tax things which are a huge positive, like house ownership. So, there are some of my principles as far as tax go. I don't want you to ignore any of those, whatever you may wish I had said.

Having said all that, if we have to keep the stupid tax (as the mess left by the last government means we probably have to, even though it only raises a paltry 2 point something billion pounds per year), fix it. Change it so that it doesn't catch the plasterer in Walthamstow. I suggested a couple of ways of changing it to make it a bit more obviously fair. As I have shown over and over again, and there hasn't been a serious argument to show I'm wrong, as it is currently constituted, IT is an unfair tax.
 
I simply don't accept this. This is mantra trotted out by people who don't think. Why on earth does one person or family being wealthy prevent anyone else becoming wealthy? So blinking what if the wealthy stay wealthy? Jeez, this is like the stupid argument you hear against same sex marriage.......those guys over there getting married undermine heterosexual marriage. No, what other people do does not affect your own marriage/ life chances. What does affect your kids' chances are having a decent attitude to education, and no amount of taxation is going to affect that.

My above answer doesn't prejudice my previous argument that this tax is currently applied to those who aren't wealthy.

Professor Yaffle must be busy, so I hope she won't mind if I do this for once. Here's a whole book about why the highlighted bit matters.
The Spirit Level

As to your argument about whether the tax is applied to the wealthy or not, that depends on how you define wealthy, which is fairly arbitrary. Personally I'd be happy defining the top 10% as wealthy (All assets including primary residence). Since the link earlier in the thread shows only 3% of estates pay inheritance tax I'm OK with calling those who pay it wealthy.
 
Professor Yaffle must be busy, so I hope she won't mind if I do this for once. Here's a whole book about why the highlighted bit matters.
The Spirit Level.......

Go and read the section entitled "Reception" in that link, and then tell my why this book should be of any interest. It appears to have been ripped to shreds.
 
Go and read the section entitled "Reception" in that link, and then tell my why this book should be of any interest. It appears to have been ripped to shreds.

Which part of that section do you think indicates that the book has been 'ripped to shreds'? I'm aware it has been criticised and am not claiming it as flawless revealed truth, however it does point out flaws in your blanket 'It doesn't affect me if other people are rich' statement.

ETA
Sorry, I see you are correct, it's only whiny class warrior lefties who like the book
Call Me said:
David Cameron referred to the thesis of "The Spirit Level" in his 2010 Hugo Young Lecture, arguing "research by Richard Wilkson and Katie [sic] Pickett has shown that among the richest countries, it's the more unequal ones that do worse according to almost every quality of life indicator." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sp...ocieties_Almost_Always_Do_Better#cite_note-38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sp...ocieties_Almost_Always_Do_Better#cite_note-38
 
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Which part of that section do you think indicates that the book has been 'ripped to shreds'? ........

........
In the London Review of Books University of Cambridge lecturer David Runciman said that the book fudged the issue of its subtitle thesis of its UK first edition, and asked whether it is that “in more equal societies almost everyone does better, or is it simply that everyone does better on average?".......

In the European Sociological Review, sociologist John Goldthorpe argued that the book relied too heavily on income inequality over other forms of inequality (including broader economic inequality), and demonstrated a one-dimensional understanding of social stratification, with social class being in effect treated as merely a marker for income. He concluded that much more research was needed to support either the Wilkinson and Pickett "account of the psychosocial generation of the contextual effects of inequality on health or the rival neo-materialist account".[12]

Richard Reeves in The Guardian ........said there were problems with the book's approach. "Drawing a line through a series of data points signals nothing concrete about statistical significance [...] since they do not provide any statistical analyses, this can't be verified."......

John Kay in The Financial Times said that "the evidence presented in the book is mostly a series of scatter diagrams, with a regression line drawn through them. No data is provided on the estimated equations, or on relevant statistical tests".

Boyd Tonkin, writing in The Independent, described it as "an intellectual flagship of post-crisis compassion, this reader-friendly fusion of number-crunching and moral uplift has helped steer a debate about the route to a kinder, fairer nation.

........Charles Moore in The Daily Telegraph declared it to be "more a socialist tract than an objective analysis of poverty"..........

Gerry Hassan in The Scotsman said that Wilkinson and Pickett's claim that "more equal societies almost always do better" was "a universal, sweeping statement - which cannot be substantiated by most of their data."

In 2010, Tino Sanandaji and others wrote an article for the Wall Street Journal in which they said, "when we attempted to duplicate their findings with data from the U.N. and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), we found no such correlation".
The same group of researchers published a report for the Taxpayer's Alliance[22] providing details of their data analysis and coming to the conclusion that "the most straightforward measure of health simply has no robust correlation to income inequality when comparing industrialized countries using standard OECD and UN statistics".
Peter Robert Saunders, Professor Emeritus of Sociology at Sussex University, published a report for the think tank Policy Exchange questioning the statistics in The Spirit Level. He claimed that only one of the correlations in the book—that between infant mortality and income inequality—stood up to scrutiny, and that the rest were either false or ambiguous.

Christopher Snowdon, an independent researcher and adjunct scholar at the Democracy Institute,[27][28] published a book largely devoted to a critique of The Spirit Level, entitled, The Spirit Level Delusion: Fact-checking the Left's New Theory of Everything.[29] One of its central claims is that Wilkinson excludes certain countries from his data without justification, such as South Korea and the Czech Republic. It also argues that Wilkinson and Pickett falsely claim the existence of a scientific consensus when much of the literature disagrees with their findings. ...........

.........

I have selectively quoted. You will call it quote mining. However, suffice to say that there is a substantial question mark against the work presented in this book in the minds of some serious people and serious organisations.
 
I have selectively quoted. You will call it quote mining. However, suffice to say that there is a substantial question mark against the work presented in this book in the minds of some serious people and serious organisations.
Indeed I will, since two of the three criticisms you have chosen to highlight have refutations included in the Wikipedia article which you decided to exclude.

I don't disagree that there are criticisms of the book, if you are able to find a book on any aspect of socio-economics which has not been roundly criticised by someone I'd be very happy to hear about it.
 
Because we're all in the E.U. then a lot of the paperwork associated with ensuring that I have the right employment practices, guarantee the human rights of my employees and conduct business in a fair and legal way is un-necessary which makes the procurement process much easier.

If we were out of the EU then they'd have to do all of this which means that they'd prefer EU-based suppliers and/or I'd now be competing with the rest of the world (some parts of which charge significantly less than I can).

I see, thank you.
 
I love it when you put words in my mouth Craig.
No, I'm trying to understand what you say, and I'm trying out statements that I think might illustrate your thinking. A common rhetorical device. You have provided me with more material worthy of that or similar treatment in this post. Here it is.
In principle I want rid of this silly tax. In principle I want to tax things that we want to get rid of, like pollution. In principle, I don't want to tax things which are a huge positive, like house ownership.
Now, taxes can be used for more than one purpose. They may be punitive and deterrent. Like the high tax on cigarettes. And that's what you're referring to here. But their main purpose is to raise revenue. And when they are used for that, they have to be applied to "things that we don't want to get rid of" like salaries, bank accounts, corporate profits, purchases and property. All these things are legitimate objects of taxation, because they are monetary transactions, or things of monetary value. We most certainly don't want to get rid of them.

But if taxes are only to be on things that we want rid of, how are the expenses of government to be met, once this ridding has been achieved?
 
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........All these things are legitimate objects of taxation, because they are monetary transactions, or things of monetary value. We most certainly don't want to get rid of them..........

Oh we don't? Who is "we"?
 
I think the question of taxation is one which Governments need to answer in terms of what is the purpose of the tax, is it just to cover expenditure, is it a punitive or behaviour changing tax, is it to drive the economy in a certain direction, is it to stimulate growth or to control some aspect of the flow of money. Depending on the purpose then the taxation process should be fair. That is all you can expect.
 
I think the question of taxation is one which Governments need to answer in terms of what is the purpose of the tax, is it just to cover expenditure, is it a punitive or behaviour changing tax, is it to drive the economy in a certain direction, is it to stimulate growth or to control some aspect of the flow of money. Depending on the purpose then the taxation process should be fair. That is all you can expect.
With regard to revenue-raising taxes, John Stuart Mill set down this wise principle.
Equality of taxation, therefore, as a maxim of politics, means equality of sacrifice. It means apportioning the contribution of each person towards the expenses of government so that he shall feel neither more nor less inconvenience from his share of the payment than every other person experiences from his. This standard, like other standards of perfection, cannot be completely realized; but the first object in every practical discussion should be to know what perfection is.
J S Mill, Principles of Political Economy with some of their Applications to Social Philosophy v, 2,7
 
yes but that only works when you are considering contribution to public expenditure. If government is trying to change a behaviour like smoking for example then the tax is only punitive on people who smoke and those who don't have no sacrifice. So taxation is now an instrument not just for covering government expenditure but also to drive certain policy in the areas of health, environment etc
 
yes but that only works when you are considering contribution to public expenditure. If government is trying to change a behaviour like smoking for example then the tax is only punitive on people who smoke and those who don't have no sacrifice. So taxation is now an instrument not just for covering government expenditure but also to drive certain policy in the areas of health, environment etc
That's what I said. Revenue raising taxes. And I quoted J S Mill as saying it too
contribution of each person toward the expenses of government
Also, I have made the same point earlier, at post #93. I'm talking here about revenue taxes. Yes, I agree with you.
 
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