UK Vets: advice sought

Blue Bubble

Sharper than a thorn
Joined
May 9, 2005
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Location
The Green, Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK
Rolfe/BSM/Yuri et al,

My local veterinary surgery is going to hold an open day at the end of this month. Alas, the practice is now run by a real moronic woo-woo (Ilse Pedler), with whom I have crossed swords at a previous open day.

The open day is described here and I note that the woo-woo is going to include an animal chiropractor and an animal Reiki practitioner. I seem to recall that it is illegal in the UK to medically treat animals unless fully qualified as a veterinary surgeon.

My question: would the woo-woo "therapies" above be regarded as attempts to medically treat animals (and thus illegal) ?
 
Rolfe/BSM/Yuri et al,

My local veterinary surgery is going to hold an open day at the end of this month. Alas, the practice is now run by a real moronic woo-woo (Ilse Pedler), with whom I have crossed swords at a previous open day.

The open day is described here and I note that the woo-woo is going to include an animal chiropractor and an animal Reiki practitioner. I seem to recall that it is illegal in the UK to medically treat animals unless fully qualified as a veterinary surgeon.

My question: would the woo-woo "therapies" above be regarded as attempts to medically treat animals (and thus illegal) ?
These therapies are certainly attempts to treat animals for profit (and it's the 'for profit' bit that the veterinary surgeons act is concerned with) but all such practitioners are aware of the relevant legislation and will only do their work with the endorsement of the animal's vet.

It's a sort of referral and can consist of anything from a full blown clinical report that is requested from the vet to a quick phone call or a tick box saying there is no reason the animal should not receive the treatment or even just the owner asking the vet informally if it's ok for them to take their pet for treatment.

It's not just CAM practitioners this affects but also more mainstram 'para-veterinary' practitioners such as pet physiotherapists and hydrotherapists as well. There are also a few para-professionals who are exempted from the act such as cattle foot trimmers, horse dentists and, of course, farriers (the modern veterinary profession developed from farriery - we're the young upstarts as far as the blacksmiths are concerned!).

In practice it's likely that many CAVM practitioners actually do treat animals for profit without a veterinary referral (where I live there is a 'healer' of some sort on every corner) and to be realistic it's highly unlikely the law or the veterinary bodies would do anything about it unless there was evidence that animal welfare was at issue.

Interestingly one of the main groups lobbying to prevent lay persons practicing CAVM is the British Association of Veterinary Homeopaths. Obviously this is purely out of concern by this august body for animal welfare and nothing to do with anything sordid like protecting their turf.

If you wanted to ask anything I'd be wondering why the surgeon on their "look at how wonderful our super-sterile surgical facilities are" page isn't wearing a long sleeved sterile gown tucked into his/her gloves as one might expect! Great hairy arms delving around your insides aren't conducive to an infection-free, uncomplicated recovery, especially given the surgeon in shot is just about to enter an abdomen.

If you google "David Ramey veterinary acupuncture" you will find that he is a vet who has done extensive research on the history and development of acupuncture in humans and animals (the late Robert Imrie was also an extremely learned veterinary acupuncture sceptic). You will also find that, according to David, there is actually no such thing as 'traditional' veterinary acupuncture, so-called ancient acupuncture charts of points in horses are actually concerned with constipation, colic and flatulence rather than needle placement, an ancient drawing supposedly of a Chinese general administering acupuncture to his trusty steed is actually him pulling an arrow out of its chest following a battle and that in fact the ancient Chinese has very low regard for animals and would have been most unlikely to have performed acupuncture in such base and unspiritual creatures.

That might give you a bit of ammo but the legal aspect is likely to be a bit of a blind alley.

Yuri
 
Rolfe/BSM/Yuri et al,

My local veterinary surgery is going to hold an open day at the end of this month. Alas, the practice is now run by a real moronic woo-woo (Ilse Pedler), with whom I have crossed swords at a previous open day.
How was the open day, any excellent encounters we should know about? :)

Yuri
 
Yuri is right, if the woos are applying their wooness under the auspices of a vet, they are home free.

I would dispute that "for profit" is required, though. While nobody is going to prosecute you for giving your neighbour some helpful advice about their pet's health, or even a worming pill, there's nothing about money in the VSA. If you hang up your shingle and purport to treat animals, you're in breach, even if not a penny changes hands.

Rolfe.
 
Yuri is right, if the woos are applying their wooness under the auspices of a vet, they are home free.

I would dispute that "for profit" is required, though. While nobody is going to prosecute you for giving your neighbour some helpful advice about their pet's health, or even a worming pill, there's nothing about money in the VSA. If you hang up your shingle and purport to treat animals, you're in breach, even if not a penny changes hands.

Rolfe.
Isn't there something about treating your own animals is ok but you can't treat someone else's without being in breach? Being a mercenary so and so I naturally assumed that would involve money changing hands. Surely no one would do some of the things I do on a daily basis for FUN!? I know I wouldn't hang up my shingle for anything less than a six figure sum (not at my age anyway) :D.

Cheers,

Yuri
 
You're pretty much bang on. Anyone can diagnose and treat an animal which they own, or an animal they are employed to care for (so, the shepherd employed to look after the flock can treat them even though they are owned by the farmer). Of course you can't use POMs without a vet being involved, and you have a duty of care to recognise when the situation is beyond your competence and call in a vet.

Technically, that makes it illegal for a knowledgeable dog owner even to give diagnostic advice to an ignorant friend or neighbour, never mind hand over a worming pill. (Remember, diagnosis is an "act of veterinary surgery" every bit as much as dishing out medicines. And speaking as a specialist in diagnostics, just as well!) Nobody would ever be charged for doing that though, unless they were making a frequent habit of it and continued to do so even after repeated warnings.

What it does stop is the sort of scam where someone is operating, say, as a lay homoeopath and working for "donations" rather than a fee for service, or perhaps offering non-prescription medicines for sale but promoting the sale by offering a "free" consultation. Or indeed, it stops the sort of crank who might just want to "play doctor" and doesn't have any financial motivation.

Unfortubately vets have carte blanche to refer a patient to anyone they see fit. Well, not unfortunately, usually. You can refer a difficult dental case to a human-type dentist. You can refer an injured performance horse to a bona fide physiotherapist and so on. The fact that these are sensible and beneficial things to do is the reason why the old offence of "consorting with unqualified persons" was abolished.

Yes, it was indeed a breach of professional ethics at one stage to consult with or refer to anyone who wasn't a vet. Exactly to stop the primitive woo-meisters getting in by this back door. As I said, that was abolished, I think when someone was threatened with it after he asked a dentist or a human surgeon to do some specialist treatment on an animal patient, and everybody could see how ridiculous a blanket ban was. But of course it has let the woos back in under the wire, because woo vets prepared to sanction woo treatments for their patients seem to be in never-ending supply.

Rolfe.
 
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Blue Bubble, if I were unhappy with the ethos of my veterinary practice, I'd change vets.

Rolfe.
 
Blue Bubble, if I were unhappy with the ethos of my veterinary practice, I'd change vets.

Rolfe.

Rolfe, I'm trying to find the time for another "Letter to the Editor" of our local rags. And I intend to finish the letter with:

"Sadly, I will now boycott Mercer and Hughes, and find another veterinary practice in the vicinity."

A bit busy at work at the moment.
 
Rolfe, I'm trying to find the time for another "Letter to the Editor" of our local rags. And I intend to finish the letter with:

"Sadly, I will now boycott Mercer and Hughes, and find another veterinary practice in the vicinity."

A bit busy at work at the moment.
Sadly, there's money to be made in all this stuff. There are a lot of conditions in animals (and people, obviously) that will get better with time. When faced with such conditions most ethical vets will diplomatically tell clients this and use symptomatic treatments like painkillers until "nature has effected a cure". Other vets will sell those same clients a homeopathic pill (and often omit the pain relief - don't want to 'antidote' anything); and then, when it gets better - another success for homeopathy! :cool:

Yuri
 
Nevertheless, if I saw a letter like that in the local rag about my practice, it would worry me. I like to see vets who promote non-evidence-based medicine worried, preferably on a regular basis.

Rolfe.
 
Thanks, Rolfe.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for !

Though she (you know who I mean) didn't show any response to my letter last year, which I thought was rather good and pithy (I'll see if I can find it). The local rag published it under the title:

"Animal Astrology, Pet Psychics and Veterinary Voodoo"

Hmmm... I wonder where I got that last bit :D
 
Thanks, Rolfe.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for !

Though she (you know who I mean) didn't show any response to my letter last year, which I thought was rather good and pithy (I'll see if I can find it). The local rag published it under the title:

"Animal Astrology, Pet Psychics and Veterinary Voodoo"

Hmmm... I wonder where I got that last bit :D
Now steady on, voodoo is the exception, that's the one that works. I have a vast number of anectotal case logs demonstrating its effectiveness beyond reasonable doubt in a wide range of self limiting conditions... client satisfaction studies blah blah... science will catch up with voodoo any day now blah blah... an ancient modality that has stood the test of time blah blah... hundreds of satisfied customers, none of whom are stupid or deluded blah blah.... I have hundreds of references to double blinded, placebo controlled trials which demonstrate its worth (although I seem to have mislaid them for the moment) blah blah...

It's all too easy :D

Yuri VetFFVoo
(Please note; this post is available in oversized, garishly coloured fonts or entirely in capitals for the hard of thinking)

How's the website update going Rolfe?
 
I'm fascinated (horrified?) by the concept of the British Association of Veterinary Homeopaths. How does homeopathic worming work? Very poorly, I imagine.
 

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