UK - Michael Gove - make state schools more like private schools

[The Don]

Another day, another proposal from Michael Gove about how to change education.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26015535

Apparently if state schools act more like private schools then they will get the same results. This conveniently ignores the fact that private schools have many times the funding of state schools and are highly selective both in terms of the pupils and the parents.

In other education related news, Gove is allegedly surrounding himself with cronies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26004358

 

[wollery]

Is there any aspect of education that Gove can't prove doesn't understand?

 

[geni]

Another day, another proposal from Michael Gove about how to change education.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26015535

Apparently if state schools act more like private schools then they will get the same results. This conveniently ignores the fact that private schools have many times the funding of state schools and are highly selective both in terms of the pupils and the parents.

In fairness extending the school might not be that bad an idea if we could afford and and at the same time abolished homework.

In other education related news, Gove is allegedly surrounding himself with cronies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26004358

In fairness labour de-facto did the same thing just over a longer period of time.

On the plus side he would have a hard time doing worse than Chris "I swear she wasn't in school at the time" Woodhead.

 

[The Don]

In fairness extending the school might not be that bad an idea if we could afford and and at the same time abolished homework.

IIRC I was rather busy most days after school doing improving things that weren't part of the school curriculum.

Unless the school offered swimming, golf and tennis coaching, and professional music lessons and supported my appearance on the various teams, bands and orchestras I was a member of - I'd be up untillate

 

[geni]

IIRC I was rather busy most days after school doing improving things that weren't part of the school curriculum.

Unless the school offered swimming, golf and tennis coaching, and professional music lessons and supported my appearance on the various teams, bands and orchestras I was a member of - I'd be up untillate

I'd say that would be highly non typical behaviour in this day and age. Sure a few kids may lose their edge in COD but set against that you have lower childcare costs for working parents.

 

[The Don]

I'd say that would be highly non typical behaviour in this day and age. Sure a few kids may lose their edge in COD but set against that you have lower childcare costs for working parents.

And IMO this is basically what it comes down to. My mother spent her teaching career in the primary and nursery sectors and remarked toward the end of her career that she was in effect bringing up other people's children.

Schools will become warehouses for children whose parents are working all hours to make ends meet. Schools will increasingly become responsible for instilling values which will open up yet another front in the battle between schools and politicians - what should these values be.

IMO it's nothing about improved education and everything about providing free childcare.

 

[Information Analyst]

In fairness extending the school might not be that bad an idea if we could afford and and at the same time abolished homework.

The problem with the idea of extending school hours is that it will inevitably mean longer working hours for teachers, because you can bet that more won't be taken on to cover the additional hours. My wife gets to her school around 08:00 and usually leaves after 18:00; the hours outside of the "school day" (i.e. what the pupils do now) she needs for marking, preparation, etc., and she still needs to bring work home during the evening/weekend/"holidays." If the kids are in school longer - whether by starting earlier, staying later, working Saturdays, or whatever - then inevitably that will eat into the time she is (deep breath) ALREADY DOING STUFF OTHER THAN MINDING KIDS!

 

[Giz]

The problem with the idea of extending school hours is that it will inevitably mean longer working hours for teachers, because you can bet that more won't be taken on to cover the additional hours. My wife gets to her school around 08:00 and usually leaves after 18:00; the hours outside of the "school day" (i.e. what the pupils do now) she needs for marking, preparation, etc., and she still needs to bring work home during the evening/weekend/"holidays." If the kids are in school longer - whether by starting earlier, staying later, working Saturdays, or whatever - then inevitably that will eat into the time she is (deep breath) ALREADY DOING STUFF OTHER THAN MINDING KIDS!

She gets nice long holidays though.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

She gets nice long holidays though.

 

[Seismosaurus]

If he wants state schools to achieve what private schools do, it's actually quite doable.

Step one, increase the per-child funding to the same level as in private schools.

Step two, use that funding to increase the number of teachers until the teacher-pupil ratio is the same as in private schools. This will mean increasing the number of teachers by something like 50%, minimum.

Step three, give state schools the same ability to rid themselves of troublesome students that private schools have.

Job done.

Of course none of that has the remotest chance of happening. So the whole discussion is largely pointless.

 

[MikeG]

If he wants state schools to achieve what private schools do, it's actually quite doable.

Step one, increase the per-child funding to the same level as in private schools.

Step two, use that funding to increase the number of teachers until the teacher-pupil ratio is the same as in private schools. This will mean increasing the number of teachers by something like 50%, minimum.

Step three, give state schools the same ability to rid themselves of troublesome students that private schools have.........

Exactly.

My wife taught briefly in the private sector before returning to the state sector, and says that the teaching at primary level in the 2 independent schools she worked in was poor in relation to the state sector. The curricula were poor too, and she was glad to get back to a state school. However, the results achieved at private school were probably better than could be achieved in state schools, even with their better teaching and curricula, simply because of the staff:student ratio, and to some extent the facilities.

Mike

 

[Information Analyst]

She gets nice long holidays though.

Which bit of "she still needs to bring work home during the evening/weekend/"holidays"..." didn't you understand?

School breaks account for 13 weeks, but in most jobs employees would get a minimum of four weeks leave, anyway. However, seven bank holidays fall within school breaks, so actually the differential is about 7½ weeks. Considering that most teachers are taking work home most weekends during term-time, and allowing even just 4 hours per weekend (not unusual, not the most some do), that's another 4 weeks worth, so we're down to about 3½ weeks. The reality, of course, is that you can easily account for those 3½ weeks for additional work done either at home or at the "closed" school actually during the "breaks." The idea that most teachers get to undeservedly sit on their arses for weeks on end is bollocks.

 

[The Don]

The idea that most teachers get to undeservedly sit on their arses for weeks on end is bollocks.

I agree, there is a tiny minority of teachers who do nothing or next to nothing outside lessons - then there are slackers in every line of work. My father retired from teaching a few years ago but he regularly used to work until midnight preparing lessons and marking course work. The more the government introduced new initiatives and the greater the inspections and ongoing assessment, the more work he had to do. It was different for my Mother, she was a head in the nursery and primary sector. Her additional workload came from the increased devolution of powers to schools. Whereas before she was perfectly happy with services provided by the county council, instead she had to submit tenders, assess the responses and choose suppliers for a range of different services.

That's not to say that other people in other lines of work don't also work very hard but the idea that teachers work a 7 hour day, 39 weeks a year is nonsense.

 

[Information Analyst]

That's not to say that other people in other lines of work don't also work very hard but the idea that teachers work a 7 hour day, 39 weeks a year is nonsense.

Something else that most people don't realise is the infelxibility of having set breaks. In most jobs, with enough notice, workers can take time off when they want or need to, but for teachers that just isn't an option outside of very very exceptional circumstance (e.g. my wife had to jump through absolute hoops last year just to get the Friday her sister was getting married off).

My wife also worked supply for a few years, which inevitably meant that she only got paid for the days she was actually teaching, which certainly wasn't at a rate that made up for the breaks when she wasn't.

 

[Giz]

Which bit of "she still needs to bring work home during the evening/weekend/"holidays"..." didn't you understand?

School breaks account for 13 weeks, but in most jobs employees would get a minimum of four weeks leave, anyway. However, seven bank holidays fall within school breaks, so actually the differential is about 7½ weeks. Considering that most teachers are taking work home most weekends during term-time, and allowing even just 4 hours per weekend (not unusual, not the most some do), that's another 4 weeks worth, so we're down to about 3½ weeks. The reality, of course, is that you can easily account for those 3½ weeks for additional work done either at home or at the "closed" school actually during the "breaks." The idea that most teachers get to undeservedly sit on their arses for weeks on end is bollocks.

Lots of people work late or on weekends. And don't get long holidays. Let's face it; teachers have it pretty good.

 

[MikeG]

Lots of people work late or on weekends. And don't get long holidays. Let's face it; teachers have it pretty good.

You can face it that way if you like. You're wrong of course, but don't let that trouble you.

 

[Information Analyst]

Lots of people work late or on weekends.

And lots of people don't or can't. And if some others are mugs enough to do it to excess (i.e. because they're expected to work far more than they're paid for), that doesn't make it right.

And don't get long holidays.

Teachers don't get "long holidays." There are breaks in their working year that nevertheless are taken up with work to a degree that they have as much real "holiday" as most other workers.

Let's face it; teachers have it pretty good.

So why aren't you one, if it's such a cushy number?

 

[Giz]

And lots of people don't or can't.


Teachers don't get "long holidays." There are breaks in their working year that nevertheless are taken up with work to a degree that they have as much really "holiday" as most other workers.


So why aren't you one, if it's such a cushy number?

Personally, I wanted a real job. Why so defensive over commonly accepted truisms?

 

[The Don]

Personally, I wanted a real job. Why so defensive over commonly accepted truisms?

Because those truisms are not actually true and are deeply insulting to the vast majority of teachers who spend far more than their contracted hours working for the benefit of ungrateful pupils and their ungrateful parents.

I'd be surprised if too may children of teachers go into teaching. Both Mrs Don and I decided that we didn't want to work that hard for so little money at a job which is so demanding.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

https://vine.co/v/Mz3nAKXEtmt