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UK - Election 2015

Nice way of dodging the point:
Nope, just pointing out that Orwell was just as much of a snob in his own way.

some people on the left underneath all the rhetoric seem to have a deep contempt for the Common People.
And a lot of people on the left prefer to pretend this problem does not exist.
Or maybe they just recognise that while such views exist, proportionately they're far more prevalent on the right, even if for different reasons?
 
But even this is imprecise and somewhat misleading. The poorest members of society are quite obviously not paying a "larger part" of the debt than the richer members. But the point is that the poorer members are paying disproportionately less as a proportion of their means than the wealthy.

To put it a little simplistically, if there were a flat tax rate of 20% on all earned income, then someone on £10k/year would pay £2k tax, while someone on £1m/year would pay £200k tax. Therefore the wealthier person would pay vastly more actual tax than the poorer person, but the same proportion of his/her means.

But progressive taxation means that the wealthier person actually pays a greater proportion of his/her means in tax than the poorer person. In the income examples above, the poorer person would pay zero income tax from next year, while the wealthier person might pay up to £400k tax.

Thus, the wealthier disproportionately support the poorer. That's the way it should be in a fair, redistributive, compassionate society. But it's rich when people still continue to claim that the poor are bearing a disproportionate burden in fiscal terms (which is explicitly what was being referenced in regard to servicing and paying down the national debt).

The bottom line of the above rough figures:

Person A on £10,000 pa takes home £8,000.
Person B on £1m takes home £600,000.

Person B still gets to life an immensely better lifestyle than Person A.
 
There's probably a better correlation with industrial centres in general.
Yes, it's not a purely coal thing, but that industrial centres grew up where coal was abundant. However, the correlation shown in the maps is very striking.

Another consideration. Coal miners didn't usually reside in cities, but in villages near the pits, so they were somewhat isolated in smallish settlements where everyone worked in the same industry; and of course they developed solid political loyalties and held to them unswervingly. The memory or residue of this has preserved Labour as a majority party, even when that party has evidently been abandoned by other supporters.

In Scotland, by contrast, Labour has lost the old coalfields too.
 
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Third party perks? What on earth does that mean?

Was that a knee jerk because it was me? The ones just been discussed on Sky News and visible in many news sites. Those perks. The ones the Lib Dems had pre coalition. Those perks. A quick google might have saved you the silly question though
 
The bottom line of the above rough figures:

Person A on £10,000 pa takes home £8,000.
Person B on £1m takes home £600,000.

Person B still gets to life an immensely better lifestyle than Person A.



Well, firstly, no: In this (simplistic) example, Person A on £10,000 takes home £10,000.

And of course Person B gets to live an "immensely better lifestyle" than Person B. But Person B pays 40% of his/her income into the general tax pot (that's £400,000) and Person A pays 0% of his/her income (that's £0.00). And Person B and Person A probably receive similar tax-funded services in return (in fact, Person B probably opts out of the NHS and education by way of privately-funded healthcare and education fees, so Person B gets much less back for his/her £400,000 than Person B gets for his/her £0.00).


Incidentally, your argument that "Person B still gets to live an immensely better lifestyle than Person A" raises interesting questions related to idealist socialism/Marxism. Do you think it's wrong that Person B should get to live an immensely better lifestyle? If so, what should the remedy be? For example, should Person B be forced to pay £900,000 of his/her £1 million over to the state in tax, and should Person A then be handed £90,000 by the state, such that both Person A and Person B can "live the same lifestyle" on £100,000? What would your "solution" be to this "problem"?
 
Was that a knee jerk because it was me? The ones just been discussed on Sky News and visible in many news sites. Those perks. The ones the Lib Dems had pre coalition. Those perks. A quick google might have saved you the silly question though

Yeah 'cos it's all about you, isn't it.

Oh, and around here, look-it-up-for-yourself doesn't have much traction. You make the claim, you provide the back-up.
 
Yeah 'cos it's all about you, isn't it.

Oh, and around here, look-it-up-for-yourself doesn't have much traction. You make the claim, you provide the back-up.

Let me save you the bother:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ral-democrats-third-party-parliamentary-perks

In summary, perks may include:

- Fancy office for the leader
- Whip's office
- A place on every select committee
- Chairmanship of at least one committee
- Parliamentary time
- A question at Prime Minister's Question Time
- Questions during departmental question times

The SNP are in negotiation, there is no guarantee that the LibDems' perks will automatically transfer.
 
Bizarre that our system has this as something for negotiation between two political parties, rather than part of the arrangements of the House.

My initial incredulity was because I don't see any of those things as perks, other than the fancy office.
 
Well, firstly, no: In this (simplistic) example, Person A on £10,000 takes home £10,000.

I did say "rough." Even accounting for the personal allowance, £10,000 is not much more to live on than £8,000.

And of course Person B gets to live an "immensely better lifestyle" than Person B. But Person B pays 40% of his/her income into the general tax pot (that's £400,000) and Person A pays 0% of his/her income (that's £0.00). And Person B and Person A probably receive similar tax-funded services in return (in fact, Person B probably opts out of the NHS and education by way of privately-funded healthcare and education fees, so Person B gets much less back for his/her £400,000 than Person B gets for his/her £0.00).

Person B may well opt out of public education for any children, but private healthcare would not cover a whole host of treatment that would actually fall to the NHS, e.g. severe injury or chronic illness.

Incidentally, your argument that "Person B still gets to live an immensely better lifestyle than Person A" raises interesting questions related to idealist socialism/Marxism. Do you think it's wrong that Person B should get to live an immensely better lifestyle? If so, what should the remedy be? For example, should Person B be forced to pay £900,000 of his/her £1 million over to the state in tax, and should Person A then be handed £90,000 by the state, such that both Person A and Person B can "live the same lifestyle" on £100,000? What would your "solution" be to this "problem"?

No, I think it wrong that someone has to get by on as little as £10,000 or less for full time work, especially if it is topped up by state benefits. I certainly wouldn't, though, support any taxation above 50% on income for high earners.
 
Bizarre that our system has this as something for negotiation between two political parties, rather than part of the arrangements of the House.

My initial incredulity was because I don't see any of those things as perks, other than the fancy office.

I'm not sure whether you mean that they're not perks because they're not a good think to have or whether they're not perks because there should be a well defined way of deciding what "things" a party gets dependent on its size.

If it's the latter then I agree, there should be a defined set of resources available based on number of MPs and/or position in the party size pecking order.

If it's the former, positions on, and chairmanship of select committees are very useful and a tangible way to exert influence. A guaranteed question at PMQ (and other question times) at least ensures that you can express your point (even if, as usual the question is successfully dodged). Guaranteed parliamentary time means that you can at least introduce some bills and whatnot.
 
I'm not sure whether you mean that they're not perks because they're not a good think to have or whether they're not perks because there should be a well defined way of deciding what "things" a party gets dependent on its size.
If it's the latter then I agree, there should be a defined set of resources available based on number of MPs and/or position in the party size pecking order.........

This.
 
Well, Farage's holiday lasted less than a week. He's back in charge of UKIP.

Well colour me relatively unsurprised. His language when he stepped down was very equivocal (he mentioned thinking about standing for the leadership again) and he is the most (only ?) marketable UKIP asset.

I wonder if Ed or Nick are sitting at home wishing that their parties would have rejected their resignation with such alacrity.
 
It would be interesting to allocate the perks/resources based on total votes cast rather than number of MPs. That way the Lib Dems would get better offices than the SNP, and more parliamentary time. The UKIP member could have a jewel-encrusted office and as much time as he wanted!
 
Well colour me relatively unsurprised. His language when he stepped down was very equivocal (he mentioned thinking about standing for the leadership again) and he is the most (only ?) marketable UKIP asset.

I wonder if Ed or Nick are sitting at home wishing that their parties would have rejected their resignation with such alacrity.

I doubt it. Farage can assign defeat to a crooked electoral system. UKIP made a strong showing, almost exclusively because of him (aside from Carswell and Reckless and, er, Hamilton, I am hard pressed to even name any other kippers) while Nick and Ed flopped and in both cases they each personally had a lot to do with the flopping.
 
Grant Shapps has been kicked out of the cabinet. No surprises there.
 
Well colour me relatively unsurprised. His language when he stepped down was very equivocal (he mentioned thinking about standing for the leadership again) ......

The thing which surprises me is the handling of his return. It looked absolutely clear to me during his resignation press-conference that he had organised with his senior people that he have the summer off, leaving a deputy in charge, and that he would return refreshed in the autumn. Why else would they delay the leadership election until then, and have him announce that we would consider putting his name forward at that time?
 

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