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UK - Election 2015

anglolawyer said:
Yes, I missed that. Since then they have risen from the dead and need another stake through the heart.
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The Tories could even double their Scottish seats. :) From the latest Ashcroft polls:
Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale [the seat the Tories currently hold, ddt] remains a very close contest. The tie I found two months ago is now a two-point lead for the SNP, putting it well within the margin of error and therefore too close to call.

But there is somewhat unexpected comfort for the Tories in Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk, where I found them a single point ahead in a three-party scrap (Conservative 30%, SNP 29%, Lib Dems 28%). Clearly this seat could go any one of three ways,
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Craig B said:
What on earth can you mean by that observation? If Scotland is ever to get independence, at least within constitutional procedures, nationalists require to exert their influence at Westminster. But their motive is to detach their country from WM's grasp, not to rule the UK.

How can that puzzle you? The Irish nationalists did that. They even had an MP representing an English constituency, which the SNP has not attempted.
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Partially true. I believe that Sinn Fein MPs refuse to actually attend Parliament in London.
 
Craig B said:
What on earth can you mean by that observation? If Scotland is ever to get independence, at least within constitutional procedures, nationalists require to exert their influence at Westminster. But their motive is to detach their country from WM's grasp, not to rule the UK.

How can that puzzle you? The Irish nationalists did that. They even had an MP representing an English constituency, which the SNP has not attempted.
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Yes but now the Irish National party (Sinn Fein) do not issue a UK manifesto, do not take their seats, and do not swear the oath, that is non participation. Not at all what the SNP are suggesting. Their UK manifesto is not just one of Independence but covers issues of health ( already devolved), Housing (already devolved) and climate change (also already devolved) and then the more legitimate issues of the non devolved powers - Defence, Taxation, Welfare, EU referendum, International Trade etc. However, my point is that the person who will actually have to debate these issues in the parliament should be given visibility because it will not be Nicola, and the electorate should be able to see the calibre of anyone who will be the expected leader of a party in a parliament. Also if Craig B is correct and the highest calibre will be in the Scottish parliament then who will be in the 50 expected seats ( the lowest calibre of candidate) people who cannot negotiate and win the objectives that are set out in the manifesto. Why on earth would anyone vote for them in that case? So people in Scotland think they are voting for a strong SNP in the UK parliament perhaps with a balance of power in some key votes but we don't get to hear the person who will lead that team which cannot be Nicola as she is not standing. Does not seem very democratic to me.
 
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MiaC said:
Not in the UK parliament only in the Scottish Parliament. This is why for me her role is an issue because here we have the leader in one of the devolved parliaments, assemblies etc who has no intention of standing for the House of Commons proposing policies and Manifestos that she herself cannot be held accountable for and giving no visibility to the person who will infact have to defend those policies and manifesto during the parliamentary process. It makes me wonder if she herself doubts the calibre of the people who will be doing that or indeed will it have to be Salmond leading from the sidelines and someone else as the "voice" and they don't want to admit that will be the case.
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The same holds for Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru. She's a Welsh AM and the elected leader of Plaid.

Does it really matter to you who is the face that represents the party and its platform during the election campaign? It's not that the Westminster MPs hold wildly different views than the decided-upon platform, otherwise they would not stand for the party. And for these two parties, it's just natural that the gravity point of their politics lies in Edinburgh resp. Cardiff, not in London, and so the elected leader is someone sitting in the Scottish/Welsh Assembly, not in the UK Parliament.

Once election time is over and parliament in session, you'll surely hear from the SNP MPs, and not from Ms. Sturgeon as their ventriloquist.

In the reverse, what happens in the UK when there are local or regional elections? Do you also have national TV debates? We have, in the Netherlands, and then the national party leaders go on TV to debate each other, even though none of them are standing for provincial assemblies or town councils.
 
Craig B said:
I hope that doesn't happen. Where matters are not devolved, and there are for example finance issues relating to England but which affect the UK budget as a whole, there will be differences of interpretation of what "England-only" means.

But why should there be a constitutional crisis? After all, Scotland has its own laws, but Acts affecting Scotland only were passed by the UK Parliament even though Scottish MPs formed only a small fraction of the total number. We lived with that for about 290 years.
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We didn't just live with that we actually sold our Country to achieve it. Please don't rewrite history.
 
ddt said:
The same holds for Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru. She's a Welsh AM and the elected leader of Plaid.

Does it really matter to you who is the face that represents the party and its platform during the election campaign? It's not that the Westminster MPs hold wildly different views than the decided-upon platform, otherwise they would not stand for the party. And for these two parties, it's just natural that the gravity point of their politics lies in Edinburgh resp. Cardiff, not in London, and so the elected leader is someone sitting in the Scottish/Welsh Assembly, not in the UK Parliament.

Once election time is over and parliament in session, you'll surely hear from the SNP MPs, and not from Ms. Sturgeon as their ventriloquist.

In the reverse, what happens in the UK when there are local or regional elections? Do you also have national TV debates? We have, in the Netherlands, and then the national party leaders go on TV to debate each other, even though none of them are standing for provincial assemblies or town councils.
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There would be public nationalist and other outrage if the UK leaders were involved to any great extent in Scottish parliamentary elections, the debates for the Scottish elections always showcase the Scottish Leaders of the parties that will be standing for the parliament and will themselves be potential members. In a pinch it might also showcase Scottish MPs but they know the UK leaders are so unpopular they would not dare. Plus I think in this case it does matter in circumstances where practically every vote will be a negotiation and potentially a compromise. In that case you want to see the calibre of who will be leading that team.
 
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MiaC said:
We didn't just live with that we actually sold our Country to achieve it. Please don't rewrite history.
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Sometimes it would be good to have the longhand version of this word. You sound as though you nurture a grievance over this 'we' thing which, if true, would be utterly absurd.
 
ddt said:
They refuse to swear the oath, because it includes allegiance to the Queen. And thus they are barred from attending Parliament.

There are other nationalists besides Sinn Fein, BTW.

Craig referred to this Liverpool seat, 1885-1929.
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That's a marvellous piece of trivia.
44 years.
I like the way the Tories simply gave up standing against him for the final few elections.
 
anglolawyer said:
Sometimes it would be good to have the longhand version of this word. You sound as though you nurture a grievance over this 'we' thing which, if true, would be utterly absurd.
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By we I mean't the Scots and I have to admit that at times (in an historical sense) have acted with a high degree of lack of sound judgement but then there are very few nations that have not. So I hold no grievance but was just pointing out that Scotland became part of the UK because money changed hands. The amount was £398,085 10s in 1707 and was referred to by Robert Burns in his song a parcel of rogues in a nation.

We're bought and sold for English Gold,
Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation

There has always been a degree of grievance in Scotland over these proceedings and you could say that the Nationalist cause was born out of these times and has continued to this very day. Craig B is a better historian and Burns scholar than me and can comment more fully if you ask him.
 
MiaC said:
By we I mean't the Scots and I have to admit that at times (in an historical sense) have acted with a high degree of lack of sound judgement but then there are very few nations that have not. So I hold no grievance but was just pointing out that Scotland became part of the UK because money changed hands. The amount was £398,085 10s in 1707 and was referred to by Robert Burns in his song a parcel of rogues in a nation.

We're bought and sold for English Gold,
Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation

There has always been a degree of grievance in Scotland over these proceedings and you could say that the Nationalist cause was born out of these times and has continued to this very day. Craig B is a better historian and Burns scholar than me and can comment more fully if you ask him.
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Oh, alright, alright, give us the 400 grand back and we'll call it quits :D

There surely comes a time (and it's mostly a lot less than 300 years in human affairs) when the effects produced by a cause are so residual and so completely swamped by other more proximate things that one has to think of 'now' as being entirely separate from 'then', as though 'then' were indeed a foreign land. The Scots have had it in their power to secede for many, many decades, most recently only a few weeks ago when they'd decided not to, albeit in a way that suggests the issue may return soon enough.

ETA I thought of an example: ask a Martian who won WW2 to judge from how things look now and he/she or it will surely say 'Germany'.
 
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Well, that 400k was remarkably similar to the amount flushed down the toilet over Darien.
Scotland was a little bit broke at the time.
 
Tolls said:
That's a marvellous piece of trivia.
44 years.
I like the way the Tories simply gave up standing against him for the final few elections.
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I hadn't looked at the complete election results but - yeah, that's remarkable. Even more remarkable that after O'Connor's death, the Tories didn't field a candidate either and Labour won unopposed.
 
Craig B said:
What on earth can you mean by that observation? If Scotland is ever to get independence, at least within constitutional procedures, nationalists require to exert their influence at Westminster. But their motive is to detach their country from WM's grasp, not to rule the UK.
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In other words, being part of the process they abhor.

How can that puzzle you? The Irish nationalists did that. They even had an MP representing an English constituency, which the SNP has not attempted.
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Remind me again what the Irish Nationalists actually did after the 1918 General Election....?
 
MiaC said:
By we I mean't the Scots and I have to admit that at times (in an historical sense) have acted with a high degree of lack of sound judgement but then there are very few nations that have not. So I hold no grievance but was just pointing out that Scotland became part of the UK because money changed hands. The amount was £398,085 10s in 1707 and was referred to by Robert Burns in his song a parcel of rogues in a nation.

We're bought and sold for English Gold,
Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation

There has always been a degree of grievance in Scotland over these proceedings and you could say that the Nationalist cause was born out of these times and has continued to this very day. Craig B is a better historian and Burns scholar than me and can comment more fully if you ask him.
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"Nobody mention the b-word..."
 
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