UK - December 2019 General Election

[The Don]

The problem with this article is that we have no idea whether press coverage is worse for Corbyn than for Johnson, May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, or the other leaders of the opposition during this period. Certainly far more seemed to be said about Johnson's private life than Corbyn's. The Labour party certainly seemed to have far more policies than the Tories at the election, not necessarily a good thing. Some policies seemed weird like the free broadband for all by re-nationalising BT.

Not true, just BT Openreach.

 

[Planigale]

Often said that way but it's pretty much settled that red hair in Norway et all came from the Celtic slaves they took back after raids, not from Scandinavia to the Celts.

Red hair is a Celtic attribute, and geographically (if my memory of reading about it is correct) located in the same area right back to neolithic times.

So I'm happy to boot out all these Romans, Anglos, Saxons, Vikings and so on and returning Britain to the British!

An article I found interesting was that genetically most Icelanders are the 'product' of Irish slaves taken there by the Vikings. Many slaves not so many owners.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707640269
Reparations for slavery may open many boxes.

 

[Planigale]

Not true, just BT Openreach.

You are correct, (though a bit pedantic).

 

[Arcade22]

Regarding Labours loss of support from the working class, here's someone who was thinking in the same direction as me:

Indeed, many argue that if Britain’s electoral system were not rooted in a first-past-the-post system, the Labour party would have already broken into two, one part representing the socially conservative but economically leftwing working class, the other liberal metropolitans.*Labour*now faces a choice: either accept that its traditional working-class voters are gone forever or abandon liberal social policies.

...

Working-class wariness of immigration is not an expression of an innate social conservatism but of the loss of trust, the breaking of social bonds and a sense of voicelessness. Working-class lives have been made more precarious not just through material deprivation, but through the erosion of the more intangible aspects of their lives – their place in society, the sense of community, the desire for dignity. Immigration has become*symbolic of this loss. We should not, however, confuse anger at social atomisation and political voicelessness with social conservatism.

...

The problem is not that metropolitan liberals have become too liberal or the working class more conservative. It is that social and economic changes have unstitched the relationship between the social and the liberal that defines the left; the relationship between a defence of community, of policies that put social need before private profit and a defence of rights, whether of gay people or migrants, and of opposition to unequal treatment. It’s a relationship expressed throughout the history of working-class struggles, from 19th-century opposition to slavery, to the defence of Jewish communities against Oswald Mosley’s Blackshirts in the 1930s, to the support for the*Grunwick strikers*in the 1970s.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-class-is-socially-conservative-is-a-nonsense

Unfortunately I get the impression that he is too defensive about the reputation and image of the working class. The simple fact is that permissive cosmopolitanism and multiculturalism do not get much support among working class people, yet Social Democratic parties have somehow become highly associated with these principles.

In other words, I would not be surprised if right-wing populists keep making inroads aming traditional working class voters even when they enact policies that are detrimental to the working class. They appeal to their selfish and shortsightedness, as well as their naivety, with polices there simple and straightforward if often highly ineffective or outright counterproductive.

 

[Vixen]

Considering that Corbyn has been completely unrepentant about publicly praising and defending the IRA (notably he explicitly refused to specifically condemn the IRA bombing campaign, instead just condemning bombings in general), he totally deserves the negative coverage he received.

Note that the IRA is far from the only terrorist and militant insurgent group he's been overly sympathetic to. Likewise no one forced him to deliver an eulogy for Fidel Castro, as if he was some kind of freedom fighter (hint: Fidel Castro fought against freedom, not for it). That he often ends up in company with the likes of George Galloway and other authoritarian anti-liberal leftists is not just some strange coincidence. He even called Castro a "champion of social justice" for ***** sake!

There is nothing inherently wrong in supporting the aims of the IRA (= a united Ireland free from the United Kingdom). Corbyn condemned bombing, so what is the beef. There is nothing outrageous in sympathising with the idea of a united Ireland even if you disagree with it yourself.

Likewise Castro. Some people see him a historically a liberator others as a commie bastards.

George Galloway is a prize [insert your favourite swearword here] but again having a drink with him in the bar is nothing controversial. Galloway appeared in Celebrity Big Brother so he obviously passed security clearance and vetting.

 

[Vixen]

Regarding Labours loss of support from the working class, here's someone who was thinking in the same direction as me:



https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-class-is-socially-conservative-is-a-nonsense

Unfortunately I get the impression that he is too defensive about the reputation and image of the working class. The simple fact is that permissive cosmopolitanism and multiculturalism do not get much support among working class people, yet Social Democratic parties have somehow become highly associated with these principles.

In other words, I would not be surprised if right-wing populists keep making inroads aming traditional working class voters even when they enact policies that are detrimental to the working class. They appeal to their selfish and shortsightedness, as well as their naivety, with polices there simple and straightforward if often highly ineffective or outright counterproductive.

Problem is, it is the capitalist profit-making organsiations and governments who invite immigrants here in the first place. Capitalism is blind. If there is a shortage of nurses and the only ones available are from overseas, then it'll recruit that nurse.

 

[Darat]

Problem is, it is the capitalist profit-making organsiations and governments who invite immigrants here in the first place. Capitalism is blind. If there is a shortage of nurses and the only ones available are from overseas, then it'll recruit that nurse.

Not quite right, if there is a shortage of nurses and it is less costly to import nurses they will import them.

 

[Darat]

Losing EU nationals is going to impact one area very severely and that is care. Most care homes and care companies rely on cheap(er) EU nationals. And on paper these aren't "highly qualified " or "high earners " so will be hit with the new qualifiers Johnson campaigned on.

Sadly we still perversely rank carers just above toilet cleaners, instead of being recognised as one of the most important roles in our society.

 

[Vixen]

Losing EU nationals is going to impact one area very severely and that is care. Most care homes and care companies rely on cheap(er) EU nationals. And on paper these aren't "highly qualified " or "high earners " so will be hit with the new qualifiers Johnson campaigned on.

Sadly we still perversely rank carers just above toilet cleaners, instead of being recognised as one of the most important roles in our society.

I discovered there are two types of nurses (no, not SEN versus state registered). When I worked for a leading heart and lung hospital (finance) in Chelsea I was struck by just how many of the nurses were dependent on means-tested benefits to top up their pitiable salaries. Their living quarters were like cells. Many of the other type of nurses came from the upper classes and so could rely on the bank of mummy and daddy to pursue their dream of being a nurse.

There is a massive training gap. It is hard work, with long hours, and with exams to pass. It has to be made more attractive for school leavers as a worthwhile profession.

 

[sphenisc]

There is nothing inherently wrong in supporting the aims of the IRA (= a united Ireland free from the United Kingdom). Corbyn condemned bombing, so what is the beef. There is nothing outrageous in sympathising with the idea of a united Ireland even if you disagree with it yourself.

Likewise Castro. Some people see him a historically a liberator others as a commie bastards.

George Galloway is a prize [insert your favourite swearword here] but again having a drink with him in the bar is nothing controversial. Galloway appeared in Celebrity Big Brother so he obviously passed security clearance and vetting.

ISWYDT

 

[Arcade22]

There is nothing inherently wrong in supporting the aims of the IRA (= a united Ireland free from the United Kingdom). Corbyn condemned bombing, so what is the beef. There is nothing outrageous in sympathising with the idea of a united Ireland even if you disagree with it yourself.

So why couldn't he explicitly condemn IRA terrorism? I'm pretty sure there's nothing that prevents one from being supportive of a "United Ireland" and not supporting either the republican insurgency or IRA's terrorism.

Likewise Castro. Some people see him a historically a liberator others as a commie bastards.

It's not like those things are mutually exclusive, which is pretty much the whole point.

George Galloway is a prize [insert your favourite swearword here] but again having a drink with him in the bar is nothing controversial. Galloway appeared in Celebrity Big Brother so he obviously passed security clearance and vetting.

Just don't mention Israel, the Jews or homosexuals and I'm sure he comes off as very progressive and tolerant leftist.

 

[Arcade22]

Problem is, it is the capitalist profit-making organsiations and governments who invite immigrants here in the first place. Capitalism is blind. If there is a shortage of nurses and the only ones available are from overseas, then it'll recruit that nurse.

I'm pretty sure far fewer people are upset about foreign nurses than, lets say, foreign construction workers.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Losing EU nationals is going to impact one area very severely and that is care. Most care homes and care companies rely on cheap(er) EU nationals. And on paper these aren't "highly qualified " or "high earners " so will be hit with the new qualifiers Johnson campaigned on.

Sadly we still perversely rank carers just above toilet cleaners, instead of being recognised as one of the most important roles in our society.

We rank cleaners too low too, as evidenced by the example you chose. If all the cleaners and all the advertising executives disappeared overnight, which do you think you'd miss first?

 

[Darat]

We rank cleaners too low too, as evidenced by the example you chose. If all the cleaners and all the advertising executives disappeared overnight, which do you think you'd miss first?

We did indeed see what happens when the health service was forced to out source cleaning services to the lowest bidding private company.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

We did indeed see what happens when the health service was forced to out source cleaning services to the lowest bidding private company.

My mother was a hospital domestic in the pre-outsourcing days. It's a subject I hold firm opinions on...

 

[Planigale]

I discovered there are two types of nurses (no, not SEN versus state registered). When I worked for a leading heart and lung hospital (finance) in Chelsea I was struck by just how many of the nurses were dependent on means-tested benefits to top up their pitiable salaries. Their living quarters were like cells. Many of the other type of nurses came from the upper classes and so could rely on the bank of mummy and daddy to pursue their dream of being a nurse.

There is a massive training gap. It is hard work, with long hours, and with exams to pass. It has to be made more attractive for school leavers as a worthwhile profession.

What was it like when Florence Nightingale roamed the wards Granny?

SEN and SRN have not existed for decades, hospital residences disappeared long ago; they were a part of a structure when hospitals had nursing schools and student nurses (like doctors) were resident (which meant it was easy to call in extra staff).

Nurse training in now university based, with student loans in England and Bursaries in Scotland. Nurse residencies have disappeared, nursing students work student hours.

 

[Vixen]

What was it like when Florence Nightingale roamed the wards Granny?

SEN and SRN have not existed for decades, hospital residences disappeared long ago; they were a part of a structure when hospitals had nursing schools and student nurses (like doctors) were resident (which meant it was easy to call in extra staff).

Nurse training in now university based, with student loans in England and Bursaries in Scotland. Nurse residencies have disappeared, nursing students work student hours.

Don't call me Granny. I am not a grandmother and certainly not your grandmother. As one can be a grandmother aged 35 your ageist insult is inappropriate. I may have worked in a leading hospital but I can't say I am familiar with the different grades of nursing. I was simply relying on what my ex-mother-in-law who was a midwife, said in conversation and the media in general. Remembering the 90's and 80's doesn't make you a grandmother. Cheeky so-and-so.

 

[LondonJohn]

Don't call me Granny. I am not a grandmother and certainly not your grandmother. As one can be a grandmother aged 35 your ageist insult is inappropriate. I may have worked in a leading hospital but I can't say I am familiar with the different grades of nursing. I was simply relying on what my ex-mother-in-law who was a midwife, said in conversation and the media in general. Remembering the 90's and 80's doesn't make you a grandmother. Cheeky so-and-so.

You say you were purely "relying on what your ex-mother-in-law" told you about nursing grades...... yet you claim that you were so familiar with the nursing staff when you worked at this "leading(!!!!!) hospital" that you knew about their reliance on means-tested benefits, about the dimensions of their living quarters, and about the family demographic backgrounds of plenty of them.

Or maybe you were making the whole thing up.

 

[Vixen]

You say you were purely "relying on what your ex-mother-in-law" told you about nursing grades...... yet you claim that you were so familiar with the nursing staff when you worked at this "leading(!!!!!) hospital" that you knew about their reliance on means-tested benefits, about the dimensions of their living quarters, and about the family demographic backgrounds of plenty of them.

Or maybe you were making the whole thing up.

Yes I did. And I certainly did constantly read in the newspapers about SRN and SEN nurses talking about their differences from each other, so I do not believe it was many decades ago as claimed by Planigale. When I had a spell in hospital the nurses I had were incredibly Sloane Rangery and certainly not strapped for money in the same way the nurses one reads about in the papers were. As I recall, you needed a minimum of five O-Levels to be one type of nurse (easy to get if middle class, difficult if not).

NB Yes, I know O-Levels no longer exist before you start trolling me as a 'boomer'.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes I did. And I certainly did constantly read in the newspapers about SRN and SEN nurses talking about their differences from each other, so I do not believe it was many decades ago as claimed by Planigale. When I had a spell in hospital the nurses I had were incredibly Sloane Rangery and certainly not strapped for money in the same way the nurses one reads about in the papers were. As I recall, you needed a minimum of five O-Levels to be one type of nurse (easy to get if middle class, difficult if not).

NB Yes, I know O-Levels no longer exist before you start trolling me as a 'boomer'.

Yeah..... no.

You wrote:

"When I worked for a leading heart and lung hospital (finance) in Chelsea I was struck by just how many of the nurses were dependent on means-tested benefits to top up their pitiable salaries. Their living quarters were like cells. Many of the other type of nurses came from the upper classes and so could rely on the bank of mummy and daddy to pursue their dream of being a nurse."

So you were clearly stating that when you worked for a (leading!!!) heart and lung hospital (in Chelsea!!!) you discovered a) the private income and benefits arrangements of many of the nurses, b) the dimensions and nature of the nurses' living quarters, and c) the demographic/income backgrounds of "many of the other types of nurses".

Yet now you're claiming that your knowledge of nurses' apparent benefits status actually came from "reading about it", and that your knowledge about certain other nurses being "Sloane Rangery and certainly not strapped for money" actually came from your personal experience as a patient in hospital.

So should we now assume that your initial claims about how you (allegedly) came to know these things were....... economies with the actualité?