UK Budget 2012 - would appreciate feedback/thoughts

I think the issue with tweaking the state pension/retirement age is the uncertainty it helps generates, I would prefer the government to say something like "OK anyone under 45 today it's 70" and be done with it. I picked 45 because that still leaves someone of that age today 25 "working" years to sort out their pension.

I have a bit of a problem with the "retire at 70" proposal. I do "indoor work with no heavy lifting" and am likely to be in good physical health until the age of 70. My value to clients is largely knowledge-based so as long as I stay current and don't get early onset dementia then it's likely that I will be able to work until I'm 70.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of a huge demand for physically frail unskilled employees so it's going to get even worse for the "have nots". Someone on minimum wage is also unlikely to make extra provision for their retirement, all their income goes into putting food on the table.
 
I have a bit of a problem with the "retire at 70" proposal. I do "indoor work with no heavy lifting" and am likely to be in good physical health until the age of 70. My value to clients is largely knowledge-based so as long as I stay current and don't get early onset dementia then it's likely that I will be able to work until I'm 70.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of a huge demand for physically frail unskilled employees so it's going to get even worse for the "have nots". Someone on minimum wage is also unlikely to make extra provision for their retirement, all their income goes into putting food on the table.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the system we currently have is good or even particularly sensible given the world as it is - it is just the constant fiddling with the actual age that I think causes unnecessary uncertainty.

The whole concept of a paid for retirement needs to be readdressed to deal with the UK as it is today and how we predict it will be for the next couple of decades.
 
I have a bit of a problem with the "retire at 70" proposal. I do "indoor work with no heavy lifting" and am likely to be in good physical health until the age of 70. My value to clients is largely knowledge-based so as long as I stay current and don't get early onset dementia then it's likely that I will be able to work until I'm 70.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of a huge demand for physically frail unskilled employees so it's going to get even worse for the "have nots". Someone on minimum wage is also unlikely to make extra provision for their retirement, all their income goes into putting food on the table.

My father in law is just below the current retirement age and has been a joiner all his life. As a result of his work, he has problems with (and has had operations on) both of his shoulders, he is quite badly hearing impaired, he has vibration white finger and plaques on his lungs. He has been dealing with the incapacity benefit people for about 3 years now and has been repeatedly turned down, or refused further IB and has taken it to tribunal and won every time. The stress of dealing with all this has contributed to causing depression which he is no also being treated for. I can't imagine the strain of him having to continue to deal with all that until he is 70. In the manual trades, his level of physical health at his age is pretty common.
 
Last edited:
Radio 4 / Today has Paul Johnson of the IFS saying pensioners are "hit less hard" than working people (taking into account the last 3 budgets), and particularly than working people with children. On the 50% rate he said "the experiment with the 50% rate doesn't look to have worked very well", and also mentioned that the round-trip of raising then lowering the top tax rate may be net negative since it pushes people into avoidance schemes that they don't then come back from.
 
My father in law is just below the current retirement age and has been a joiner all his life. As a result of his work, he has problems with (and has had operations on) both of his shoulders, he is quite badly hearing impaired, he has vibration white finger and plaques on his lungs. He has been dealing with the incapacity benefit people for about 3 years now and has been repeatedly turned down, or refused further IB and has taken it to tribunal and won every time. The stress of dealing with all this has contributed to causing depression which he is no also being treated for. I can't imagine the strain of him having to continue to deal with all that until he is 70. In the manual trades, his level of physical health at his age is pretty common.

Sounds like a typical social security scrounger - if he can fill in the forms why can't he simply retrain and get a job filling in forms.....

Sadly I have to agree with you that the reality of "old age" for many folk seems to be totally askew with how the discussion is framed regarding retirement and pensions. There seems to be a view quite prevalent that the Archers is a fly-on-the-wall documentary that accurately portrays retirement in this country - the older folk just take on a nice little job, perhaps helping out at the community run village shop, to fill the hours in whilst keeping an eye on how their investments are doing!
 
I have a bit of a problem with the "retire at 70" proposal. I do "indoor work with no heavy lifting" and am likely to be in good physical health until the age of 70. My value to clients is largely knowledge-based so as long as I stay current and don't get early onset dementia then it's likely that I will be able to work until I'm 70.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of a huge demand for physically frail unskilled employees so it's going to get even worse for the "have nots". Someone on minimum wage is also unlikely to make extra provision for their retirement, all their income goes into putting food on the table.

I'm particularly unsure about these pension age rises, and whether they've been properly thought through. I can't imagine how any of my unruly school classes would have been calmed down by a 70-year-old teacher.
 
On the other hand, I'm not aware of a huge demand for physically frail unskilled employees so it's going to get even worse for the "have nots". Someone on minimum wage is also unlikely to make extra provision for their retirement, all their income goes into putting food on the table.

I've said it before (partly with tongue in cheek), but I'll say it again; for someone with the right mentality there's an outstanding opportunity to bring back those low-skilled, cheap labour jobs that were off-shored and tie it into 'care' for the elderly, (with a little government subsidy investment of course).
 
I think the issue with tweaking the state pension/retirement age is the uncertainty it helps generates, I would prefer the government to say something like "OK anyone under 45 today it's 70" and be done with it. I picked 45 because that still leaves someone of that age today 25 "working" years to sort out their pension.

For me I start wondering if it's actually worth bothering - I'm pretty sure it'll be 70 before I retire (long way off) - and life expectancy for someone already my age isn't much over 80 - so a lifetime of saving for maybe a decade of payout if i'm (relatively) lucky....

It says it's too soon to make a decent evaluation of the money it raises or doesn't raise.

The earlier Mirrlees Review of UK tax (also through the IFS) pointed to an optimal top income tax rate of 40% (to which NICs are added) page 109, which implies that 50% raises less than 40%. Also this note (page 11) using the same analysis says that the 45% rate (which was what the 50% rate was originally going to be) "could raise approximately nothing". Both the latter two were written before any data was available and they both highlight large uncertainty.

thanks for the info...

IFS have just released this:

George Osborne's income tax giveaways in the budget run the risk of leaving the already overstretched public finances worse off, a leading thinktank has warned.

Presenting its analysis, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) predicted that the costs of taking lower earners out of income tax and cutting the rate for the super-rich may be hard to offset.

It also criticised a "hotch-potch of reforms" as a failure to make any real tax changes for the UK.

"Perhaps one worry for the chancellor as the dust settles on his third budget is that on his attempt to achieve a fiscally neutral package he has created some risks," said the IFS's director, Paul Johnson.

Referring to government and tax office estimates, he added: "We know pretty much for sure that the increase in the personal allowance will cost about £3.5bn in 2014-15. We do not know with anything like such certainty that the cut in the 50p rate will cost only £100m."

"This budget may turn out to be less fiscally neutral than intended."

On the overall public finances, the IFS said "the underlying problems remain" – with borrowing forecast to fall much less rapidly over the next five years than hoped this time last year.

Osborne's budget quickly came under fire on Wednesday for cutting taxes for the rich while imposing a "stealth tax" on pensioners, making a fresh £10bn attack on welfare and continuing cuts to child benefit.

Osborne, however, argued that his budget was centred on taking the lowest earners out of income tax altogether as he raise the tax allowance to more than £9,000 from next year.

Johnson said it was hard to see it as "the budget of a truly tax-reforming chancellor."

"The hotch-potch of reforms bears as many marks of political expediency as it does strategic reform," he added.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/22/budget-2012-ifs-tax-reforms
 
I'm too young to have been paying attention the last time the top income tax rate was cut. It was fairly obviously seen as a political liability this time around, witness the trialing in advance and the leakage and the media's adverse coverage. All other tax cuts I remember from Labour and the tories were "good news" and announced with fanfare rather than excuses. The tax hike to 50% seemed to rebound negatively on Labour, but it now has majority support (of course, the vast majority don't pay it)

Is that due to the current economic climate (and blame for it on bankers etc), or was it a political liability in the Lawson 80s as well? (I am guessing that income/wealth inequality was not the hot political issue then that it now is) Anyone wrinkly enough to comment?
 
The proposal to further reduce VAT zero rated works on listed buildings amounts to nothing less than a penalty on domestic owners already struggling under the burden of increased repair costs.
 
I'm too young to have been paying attention the last time the top income tax rate was cut. It was fairly obviously seen as a political liability this time around, witness the trialing in advance and the leakage and the media's adverse coverage. All other tax cuts I remember from Labour and the tories were "good news" and announced with fanfare rather than excuses. The tax hike to 50% seemed to rebound negatively on Labour, but it now has majority support (of course, the vast majority don't pay it)

I think there are two different cases here.

Reductions in the basic rate of income tax would still be portrayed as good news (even though the best off benefit most from it). It's the fact that the top rate of income tax is being reduced at the same time as there is no corresponding drop in the standard rate. Layer on top of this the suspicion that we're not "all in it together" when the less well off are suffering significant reductions in disposable incomes and millionaires are apparently £40,000 a year better off (as if millionaires would be careless enough to pay full whack).

In the past, reductions in the top rate of income tax have been during times of relative prosperity. I suppose that the man in the street either thinks "fair enough I'm doing OK so it's not so bad that rates are being lowered". The problem this time is that that most people are feeling the squeeze very badly (rising prices, static or falling income) so seeing millionaires apparently benefiting to the tune of £40,000 annually unpalatable.

Of course it's just a perception. I'd be amazed if anyone earning £1million a year would benefit that much.

Is that due to the current economic climate (and blame for it on bankers etc), or was it a political liability in the Lawson 80s as well? (I am guessing that income/wealth inequality was not the hot political issue then that it now is) Anyone wrinkly enough to comment?

Well, the economy was picking up - which played well and levels of income/wealth disparity were comparatively small. In fact you could argue that the last drops in high rate were a catalyst to current levels of income disparity.
 
Ah, yes, the Laffer curve again. I find it difficult to fathom where the incentive is for someone avoiding the 50% tax rate to pay 45% or 40% or whatever. Those able to take advantage of tax efficient schemes will continue to.

People who are higher rate taxpayers have little or no practical choice which can easily mean they avoid paying tax at the 40% rate - it has also been in place for a long time and applied to all income above c£40k.

The changes to the tax system made recently (clawback of personal allowances for earnings over £100k, giving 60% effective rate which then drops back to 40% before going up to 50% at £150k plus) give two groups who have higher than previous marginal rates. This provides a trigger to consider tax planning.

Someone who has a chunk of income which is now taxed at a higher rate (say earning £110k) can choose to make £10k additional pension contributions or charitable donations. The effect of this is they get 60% tax relief on those payments.

I think it is less the absolute rate that drives avoidance activity, it is the increased marginal rates in particular bands which provides the trigger for people to consider engaging in it.

Which of course would mean that the new, and very high, effective rates for taxpayers with taxable income between £50k and £60k will lead to a similar effect.

And if we accept that high marginal tax rates are a deterrent to people who are well paid, should we not maybe have a bit of a think about a system that has some of the highest marginal tax rates impacting on people who are on much lower incomes due to a combination of tax, NI and benefit withdrawal?
 
People who are higher rate taxpayers have little or no practical choice which can easily mean they avoid paying tax at the 40% rate - it has also been in place for a long time and applied to all income above c£40k.

nitpick - try c£35k. or £34,371 :P - or is that on top of the personal allowance?


Which of course would mean that the new, and very high, effective rates for taxpayers with taxable income between £50k and £60k will lead to a similar effect.

I don't quite follow this, did I miss something - the only change I saw in the budget for people in that salary band was the child tax credit, so what you've said there only really holds true for those with children...(I'm just curious really as I should be getting there myself in the not too distant future and don't have kids)
 
Last edited:
nitpick - try c£35k. or £34,371 :P - or is that on top of the personal allowance?

That's on top of the personal allowance of £8,105 for the tax year about to start. Adds up to c£40k ;) (ish!)


I don't quite follow this, did I miss something - the only change I saw in the budget for people in that salary band was the child tax credit, so what you've said there only really holds true for those with children...(I'm just curious really as I should be getting there myself in the not too distant future and don't have kids)

Yep, tax rate will be 40% for no kids, 50.56% with 1 kid then up by c7% for each additional child thereafter. Meant to refer to taxpayers in that band with kids.
 
My experience is that people who (legally) avoid paying taxes by exploiting loopholes will continue to do so regardless of the marginal rate of tax.

Until the marginal cost of avoidance becomes the greater.

Why do some people find this difficult to understand? Beats me, but there it is.
 
Feh. £682 billion = $1,086,494,200,000.


We borrow that much every 7 months.
 

Back
Top Bottom