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Cont: UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Actually the word itself is unambiguous in its intended meaning. It is used to convey the idea of an alien craft.
No it isn't. What a silly idea! UFO means Unidentified Flying Object. You can see it's like an acronym where the first letter of each word is used to make the acronym "UFO". I think it's just the credulous who want to try to redefine Alien Space Ships into existence when they're frustrated by the lack of actual evidence for them.

Do all UFO reports turn out to be UFOs?
That makes no sense. UFO reports turn out to be UFO reports. The subject of UFO reports has always turned out to be either natural or manmade. There haven't been any that have turned out to be Alien Space Ships. You've been asked enough times for such a report but you continue to be silent on that while trying to redefine Alien Space Ships into existence. Hasn't worked for you, has it?

No. Does the information in some UFO reports lead some people to the conclusion that the the object seen cannot be reasonably explained as anything other than a UFO? Yes.
Again, you haven't made any sense here. What do you mean by "...explained as anything other than a UFO"? If it's Unidentified, appears to be Flying and appears to be an Object, of course it's a UFO by definition. Do you have a link to where any UFO has turned out to be an Alien Space Ship?

Is that evidence sufficient to scientifically prove the material existence of UFOs? No. Is that evidence accompanied by other similar reports sufficient to make it reasonable to believe UFOs are real. That all depends on what you consider "reasonable", and some people are more reasonable than others.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Well, no. :) Some people are just more credulous than others and have a will to believe without evidence.

I've bolded the important part for you. No, no UFOs have ever turned out to be Alien Space Ships. Sometimes UFOs are airplanes, balloons, birds, optical illusions, and hoaxes, among innumerable other explanations.

You've still never answered this other question: Is a UFO report from multiple military personnel (trained observers) combined with FLIR confirmation a high quality report? Why or why not?
 
Actually the word itself is unambiguous in its intended meaning. It is used to convey the idea of an alien craft.
That's utterly ridiculous hogwash.

And here's why;
Do all UFO reports turn out to be UFOs?
If an object is unidentified then you can't know whether or not it's an alien craft. If UFO means alien craft then it isn't a UFO report, but a UAP report. If all reports of unexplained things in the sky are UFO reports, then UFO means Unidentified Flying Object, i.e. something that is not identified.

You can't have it both ways, and it's disingenuous of you to use the term "UFO report" whilst insisting that UFO specifically means "alien craft".

The rest of your post is just a waffling attempt to transform multiple anecdotes into some form of evidence.
 
Actually the word itself is unambiguous in its intended meaning. It is used to convey the idea of an alien craft. Do all UFO reports turn out to be UFOs? No.


Everything which is initially a UFO is either identified as some particular thing, or remains unidentified. How many of those which were identified as a particular thing were identified as alien craft? Zero. So all UFOs, every singe one of them, has been identified as something which was not an alien craft, or it is still unidentified. Yes, by definition, a UFO.

Does the information in some UFO reports lead some people to the conclusion that the the object seen cannot be reasonably explained as anything other than a UFO? Yes.


And those people don't understand logic or reason. They aren't critical thinkers. They employ logical fallacies and lies in order to cling to a fantasy. But none of those people who take that position has ever been able to support their conclusion with objective evidence or a reasoned argument.

Is that evidence sufficient to scientifically prove the material existence of UFOs? No.


UFOs exist. Almost everyone has seen at least one. But that fact has nothing to do with the convoluted attempt to defend the existence of alien craft in the above comment.

Is that evidence accompanied by other similar reports sufficient to make it reasonable to believe UFOs are real. That all depends on what you consider "reasonable", and some people are more reasonable than others.


UFOs are real. They are things which are perceived to be flying objects and which have not been identified as any particular thing. Consider for a moment how the initials U F O so neatly match the first letters in the words unidentified flying object. It is not a coincidence. :rolleyes:
 
That's utterly ridiculous hogwash.

And here's why;
If an object is unidentified then you can't know whether or not it's an alien craft. If UFO means alien craft then it isn't a UFO report, but a UAP report. If all reports of unexplained things in the sky are UFO reports, then UFO means Unidentified Flying Object, i.e. something that is not identified.

You can't have it both ways, and it's disingenuous of you to use the term "UFO report" whilst insisting that UFO specifically means "alien craft".

The rest of your post is just a waffling attempt to transform multiple anecdotes into some form of evidence.


You're confusing the idea of a UFO itself with the idea of a UFO report. Not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs, just like not all the people in missing persons reports turn out to be missing persons. Additionally, the evidence in support of the word UFO being used to convey the idea of an alien craft is overwhelming. In addition to its origin as a replacement for the phrase "flying saucers", of the 200 million plus references on Google, the vast majority in the images section and the articles section clearly refer to or are framed in the context of the topic of alien craft. You can read a complete article here along with a more in-depth word history than you'll probably find anywhere else. In contrast, your opinion is uninformed and based purely on your personal opinion rather than the actual facts or independent evidence.
 
I think you'll find that UFO includes those possibilities too.


Actually the word itself is unambiguous in its intended meaning.





It's not a word, it's an acronym. It is as you say, however, unabiguous in its meaning.


It is used to convey the idea of an alien craft.


This is quite wrong. An alien craft ( flying saucer ), should one ever be positively identified as such, would of course be an IFO.

It beggars belief that you continue to refer to things as being both unidentified and identified (as alien craft ( flying saucers )) within a single sentence.
 
Actually the word [ed - UFO] itself is unambiguous in its intended meaning. It is used to convey the idea of an alien craft. Do all UFO reports turn out to be UFOs? No. Does the information in some UFO reports lead some people to the conclusion that the the object seen cannot be reasonably explained as anything other than a UFO? Yes. Is that evidence sufficient to scientifically prove the material existence of UFOs? No. Is that evidence accompanied by other similar reports sufficient to make it reasonable to believe UFOs are real. That all depends on what you consider "reasonable", and some people are more reasonable than others.
I'm curious about how you can say that "UFO" is not an acronym for Unidentified Flying Object. Just by contrast, here's what noted UFOlogist J Randall Murphy says about another acronym at a ufology website:

USI

Acronym for Ufology Society International and usually pronounced as the sound of each individual letter, as in "yoo-ess-eye", but also occasionally as "yousee" or "yousigh". USI was founded in 1989 by J. Randall Murphy in Calgary Canada for the purpose of providing easy access to UFO related information, and over the long term, to help establish the truth regarding alien visitation to planet Earth.

How is USI an acronym and UFO is not? :confused:
 
You're confusing the idea of a UFO itself with the idea of a UFO report. Not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs, just like not all the people in missing persons reports turn out to be missing persons.
Missing person's however, never turn out to be anything other than persons.
A missing person may well become a found person
An Unidentified Flying Object may well become an Identified Flying Object.

So how many to date have been IDENTIFIED as Alien Space Ships?

Additionally, the evidence in support of the word UFO being used to convey the idea of an alien craft is overwhelming.
Or more accurately; the evidence in support of the word UFO being misused to convey the idea of an alien craft is overwhelming.

Not least by you.

In addition to its origin as a replacement for the phrase "flying saucers",
As you well know, the term flying saucer was a misunderstanding in the first place. This was known at the time and although the term Flying Saucer entered into popular culture and parlance, it was considered as not representative of what was being reported to the USAF. Therefore the term Unidentified Flying Object was deemed to be a more accurate term to use.
It was only UFOlogists that hi-jacked the word and constantly misused it and still do to this day.

of the 200 million plus references on Google, the vast majority in the images section and the articles section clearly refer to or are framed in the context of the topic of alien craft.
Apart from the Argumentum ad Populum, can you tell us how many of the 200 million plus Google references positively identify a UFO as an alien space ship?

You can read a complete article here along with a more in-depth word history than you'll probably find anywhere else. In contrast, your opinion is uninformed and based purely on your personal opinion rather than the actual facts or independent evidence.
Again you link to that well known woo site, run by a UFOlogist who has shown he has no understanding of the objectively verifiable.
 
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]You're confusing the idea of a UFO itself with the idea of a UFO report.
No, that's actually what you did when you said UFO reports turn out to be UFOs. You should own your mistakes and not try to foist them off on others.

Not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs, just like not all the people in missing persons reports turn out to be missing persons.
But Missing Persons reports are filled out because they concern a Person who is Missing. Can you see the correlation between the two?

Of course, if something the subject of a UFO report turns out to be something identified, it is no longer Unidentified and therefore no longer fits the acronym of UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ). Can you see how that is true?

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Additionally, the evidence in support of the word UFO being used to convey the idea of an alien craft is overwhelming.
No, it really isn't. It's the fringe credulous who want to cling to that.

In addition to its origin as a replacement for the phrase "flying saucers", of the 200 million plus references on Google, the vast majority in the images section and the articles section clearly refer to or are framed in the context of the topic of alien craft. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]You can read a complete article [URL="http://ufopages.com/Reference/BD/UFO-01a.htm"][COLOR=blue][U]here[/U][/COLOR][/URL] along with a more in-depth word history than you'll probably find anywhere else.
Argumentum ad Googlium has never really taken off in critical thinking circles.

In contrast, your opinion is uninformed and based purely on your personal opinion rather than the actual facts or independent evidence.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Well, no. :) You've given your opinion that UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) means something other than what it means and that didn't even work at the UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) site you tried it on. It certainly won't work with people who think critically and logically.

Now is your chance to answer some questions. Of all the UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) reports filed, how many have turned out to be an Alien Space Ship ( *** )? I assume you are unwilling to answer my other question about the quality of a report made by multiple military officers ( TO's [ Trained Observers ] ) backed up by FLIR electronic data because the answer destroys your arguments. I accept that.
 
You're confusing the idea of a UFO itself with the idea of a UFO report.





No, what's being pointed out to you in post after post is that a UFO is an unidentified flying object and that a UFO report is a report of an unidentified flying object.

The only source of confusion is the single contributor to the thread who insists that UFO means unidentified flying object only when the acronym is used in conjunction with the word 'report' and means alien craft ( flying saucer ) in all other cases.


Not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs, just like not all the people in missing persons reports turn out to be missing persons.


Rubbish.

Whether or not a UFO is at some stage identified as a mundane object, the report remains exactly what it always was, a report of something unidentifed in the sky. It doesn't magically transform into a "Venus report' or a 'hot air balloon report. It absolutely, positively never, ever turns into a "flying saucer ( omgaliens ) report".

When a missing person turns up, the investigators don't cross out "Missing Person Report" on the top of the form and replace it with "Found Person Report".


[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Additionally, the evidence in support of the word UFO being used to convey the idea of an alien craft is overwhelming. In addition to its origin as a replacement for the phrase "flying saucers", of the 200 million plus references on Google, the vast majority in the images section and the articles section clearly refer to or are framed in the context of the topic of alien craft. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]You can read a complete article [URL="http://ufopages.com/Reference/BD/UFO-01a.htm"][COLOR=blue][U]here[/U][/COLOR][/URL] along with a more in-depth word history than you'll probably find anywhere else. In contrast, your opinion is uninformed and based purely on your personal opinion rather than the actual facts or independent evidence.[/SIZE][/FONT]


Making up definitions for things and then referring people to your own website where that same made-up definition appears and pretending this is independent corroboration is an insult to the intelligence of the members of this Forum.
 
You're confusing the idea of a UFO itself with the idea of a UFO report. Not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs,

Then where is the confusion? Somebody can't identify an object they see, so it is a UFO untill identified. The missing person remains so until found. That UFOs are later identified does not alter the definition, nor does it support your claim that the acronym means alien vessels.

Now, about that list of government sponsored investigations, where one can peruse the evidence, and how many established the existence of alien craft...
 
Not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs, just like not all the people in missing persons reports turn out to be missing persons.
Errr, no.

A missing person report is a report made by someone who can't find another person and is concerned about their welfare. Usually it's a relative. At the time the report is filed the person is, to all intents and purposes, missing. They may turn up later, having decided to just get away for a few days without telling anybody. Of course, sometimes missing persons turn out to be murder victims, which is sad, but that's the way it goes.

Similarly a UFO report is a report mad by someone about an object they have seen in the sky (usually) that they were unable to identify. It is a report about and Unidentified Flying Object, or UFO for short. It may turn out that the object in question was a plane, or a satellite, or a weather phenomenon. It's just possible that it could have been an alien craft, although no UFO report has ever been shown to be such. But the report is most definitely made about an Unidentified Flying Object

When you suggest that "not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs" using your redefinition of UFO as "alien craft" you are essentially redefining "UFO report" as "potential alien craft report". But this would be like renaming "missing persons reports" as "potential murder victim reports", because some missing persons turn out to be murder victims, which is both idiotic and disturbing (particularly for the person making the report).

The original reason for replacing "flying saucer" with UFO was that "flying saucer" assumed a specific cause, whereas UFO doesn't. All you've done is co-opt the acronym and readopt the original assumption that went along with the term "flying saucer".

Nobody here is buying it. Your continued attempts to redefine alien craft into existence are as transparent as they are futile. Give it up and let's get on with actually talking about the evidence, assuming you have some.
 
Errr, no.

A missing person report is a report made by someone who can't find another person and is concerned about their welfare. Usually it's a relative. At the time the report is filed the person is, to all intents and purposes, missing. They may turn up later, having decided to just get away for a few days without telling anybody. Of course, sometimes missing persons turn out to be murder victims, which is sad, but that's the way it goes.

Similarly a UFO report is a report mad by someone about an object they have seen in the sky (usually) that they were unable to identify. It is a report about and Unidentified Flying Object, or UFO for short. It may turn out that the object in question was a plane, or a satellite, or a weather phenomenon. It's just possible that it could have been an alien craft, although no UFO report has ever been shown to be such. But the report is most definitely made about an Unidentified Flying Object

When you suggest that "not all objects in UFO reports turn out to be UFOs" using your redefinition of UFO as "alien craft" you are essentially redefining "UFO report" as "potential alien craft report". But this would be like renaming "missing persons reports" as "potential murder victim reports", because some missing persons turn out to be murder victims, which is both idiotic and disturbing (particularly for the person making the report).

The original reason for replacing "flying saucer" with UFO was that "flying saucer" assumed a specific cause, whereas UFO doesn't. All you've done is co-opt the acronym and readopt the original assumption that went along with the term "flying saucer".

Nobody here is buying it. Your continued attempts to redefine alien craft into existence are as transparent as they are futile. Give it up and let's get on with actually talking about the evidence, assuming you have some.


I haven't "co-opted" anything, if anything that's what the skeptics are doing here by mere proclamation ( as you have just done ). In contrast I've already provided independent historical documentation and real life examples. So if nobody here "buys it" it's because they choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts and the obvious.


A missing person report is a report made by someone who can't find another person and is concerned about their welfare. Usually it's a relative.


The analogy isn't from the viewpoint of the person who made the report, but in the context of the reports themselves and the viewpoint of the investigators ( the officials or those who deal with the cases ). The police officer investigating the report of a missing person is analogous to the USAF officer investigating a UFO report. In either case, from the investigator's objective point of view, a missing person's report is simply a report about an alleged missing person or someone that the person who made the report believes is a missing person, just like a UFO report is a report about an alleged UFO or something the observer believes was a UFO. However upon investigation it may turn out that there was no missing person ( or UFO ) or that the missing person wasn't actually missing, but something else due to a miscommunication, misinterpretation, misperception ... whatever. Most people in missing person reports end up in the latter category just like most of the objects in UFO reports don't turn out to be UFOs.
 
I haven't "co-opted" anything, [...]



Why yes, yes you have. UFO stands for "unidentified flying object". To try to change the definition of the term such that "unidentified" means it has been identified as a particular thing is not a rational argument.

[...] if anything that's what the skeptics are doing here by mere proclamation (as you have just done).


No. The skeptics in this discussion have been completely consistent, not to mention correct, in their use and understanding of the word "unidentified" and the acronym "UFO" which includes the word. We use it according to the common use of language, the definition of word, and not by proclamation as you ironically proclaim. You are the only one who insists on equating unidentified with identified. You have been, are now, and will continue to be incorrect as long as you insist on using the term UFO to mean something unidentified should be considered identified as a particular thing.

In contrast I've already provided independent historical documentation and real life examples. So if nobody here "buys it" it's because they choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts and the obvious.[/SIZE][/FONT]


Try this real life example: UFO is an acronym for "unidentified flying object". Anyone who disagrees with that is wrong. The word "unidentified" means, well, that it hasn't been identified. So anyone who claims that a UFO is some particular thing is using the term in a way that is the polar opposite of what it actually means, and is therefore wrong. Very, very wrong. They couldn't be more wrong. You can continue to use the term incorrectly if you like, but it is not reasonable to do so, and it will impede rather than facilitate effective communication.

The analogy isn't from the viewpoint of the person who made the report, but in the context of the reports themselves and the viewpoint of the investigators (the officials or those who deal with the cases). The police officer investigating the report of a missing person is analogous to the USAF officer investigating a UFO report. In either case, from the investigator's objective point of view, a missing person's report is simply a report about an alleged missing person[/I] or someone that the person who made the report believes is a missing person[/I], just like a UFO report is a report about an alleged UFO[/I] or something the observer believes was a UFO[/I]. However upon investigation it may turn out that there was no missing person (or UFO) or that the missing person wasn't actually missing, but something else due to a miscommunication, misinterpretation, misperception ... whatever. Most people in missing person reports end up in the latter category just like most of the objects in UFO reports don't turn out to be UFOs.[/SIZE][/FONT]



All of the above is absolute nonsense. A missing person report is made when someone is missing, someone known to exist, someone whose identity is known. A UFO report is about something which has not been identified. That's why it's a UFO report. Note the "U" in UFO. It's unidentified. The analogy you're attempting, in keeping with pretty much every argument you've put forth, has failed.
 
I haven't "co-opted" anything, if anything that's what the skeptics are doing here by mere proclamation ( as you have just done ). In contrast I've already provided independent historical documentation and real life examples. So if nobody here "buys it" it's because they choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts and the obvious.

Proclamations? Ironic in that you've provided numerous claims, but no objective evidence. Why should anyone accept a claim for itself in and of itself? Beyond credulity I mean. And actual willfull ignorance of what evidence actually is, not what one would like it to be.
 
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I haven't "co-opted" anything, if anything that's what the skeptics are doing here by mere proclamation ( as you have just done ).

No, you've attempted to co-opt the acronym UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) to mean Alien Space Ship or Flying Saucer. Can you see how those mean different things?

In contrast I've already provided independent historical documentation and real life examples. So if nobody here "buys it" it's because they choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts and the obvious.[/SIZE][/FONT]
So you're claiming that all the Alien Space Ship proponents at that Alien Space Ship proponent site where you also tried to push your idea that UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) means Alien Space Ship are wilfully ignorant? Why do they not agree with you that UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) doesn't mean Alien Space Ship?

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]The analogy isn't from the viewpoint of the person who made the report, but in the context of the reports themselves and the viewpoint of the investigators ( the officials or those who deal with the cases ). The police officer investigating the report of a missing person is analogous to the USAF officer investigating a UFO report. In either case, from the investigator's objective point of view, a missing person's report is simply a report about an alleged[I] missing person[/I] or someone that the person who made the report [I]believes is a missing person[/I], just like a UFO report is a report about an alleged[I] UFO[/I] or something the observer [I]believes was a UFO[/I].
Yep, you're doing good here so far. A UFO ( Unidentified Flying Object ) report is about something that is Unidentified, appears to be Flying, and appears to be an Object.

However upon investigation it may turn out that there was no missing person ( or UFO ) or that the missing person wasn't actually missing, but something else due to a miscommunication, misinterpretation, misperception ... whatever. Most people in missing person reports end up in the latter category just like most of the objects in UFO reports don't turn out to be UFOs.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Of course, when they find the person, they are no longer missing. When an Object that was previously Unidentified becomes Identified, then it may be an IFO ( Identified Flying Object ). Not always, as we see happened at Campeche, those UFOs became ISOs ( Identified Stationary Objects ).

I assume when you say that UFOs ( Unidentified Flying Objects ) turn out to not be UFOs ( Unidentified Flying Objects ), it's because they have been Identified as something and are no longer Unidentified. The ones that remain Unidentified, of course, remain UFOs ( Unidentified Flying Objects ).

I'm not aware of any that have ever turned out to be Alien Space Ships, though. Do you know of any?
 
WHERE DO UFOLOGISTS and Chemtrailers BUY THEIR EQUIPMENT
A look on the lighter side of UFO’s

If your camera sucks, then you have probably bought it where all the other Ufologists and Chemtrailers buy their stuff, and is not going to work for the reasons given below.
Can anyone tell me where one might find the specialist shops where Ufologist buy their cameras, and optics. I heard about a company called Universal UFO Optics Import, of
Pork Bend Indiana but I cannot find their site on the net, and well actually I can’t even find Pork Bend Indiana, another government conspiracy no doubt. UFO Hunters take note.
This highly specialized software based and superbly sophisticated equipment is designed to, amongst other things, introduce a phenomena called S.I. Shake and Instability, this makes it almost impossible to the see what the object to be photographed is.
Another piece of kit essential for any Ufologist is the A.O.O.F, Auto Out Of Focus, this changes the focus randomly, using "Fuzzy Logic" control, and is again designed to frustrate anyone wanting to know what the object is.
Another system much favored by Ufologist, is the A.C.E.O, Auto Correct Exposure Override, designed to keep the images dark and obscure, even on sunny days, and is truly a masterpiece of mis-applied technology, rumor has it that it comes from back engineered alien technology, however, I am not at liberty to answer any question on this particular point, or it’s ramifications.
D.F.A.A.O, Detail Free Auto Always On, Makes sure that not a single detail can be gleaned, using state of the art, P.D.S, Pixel, Displacement System which randomly jumbles the information ensuring yet another lousy image.
N.P.C.E.E, No Possible Close Encounter Exposure, cunningly designed to automatically lock the focus and shutter thereby eliminate any possibility of close up, detailed photography if the object is closer than 10km.
But what happens though if all these features fail? Could it be that a really good image would be captured, don’t worry, in the unlikely event that any of these features should fail, the specialist designers have introduced a back up function, called Auto Zap ™ which is designed around a state of the art 3.5 Ghz duty cycle class D chip this onboard power supply, powers up and automatically sends 10,000 volts through the Ufologist if the image is deemed by the microprocessor to be in focus and correctly exposed. While not lethal, this will make the user drop the camera, thus ensuring yet another worthless picture. If anyone has information concerning the above, I would be most interested hearing from them.
 
I haven't "co-opted" anything, if anything that's what the skeptics are doing here by mere proclamation ( as you have just done ).





No, I think you'll find (or more importantly, what everyone else can see from a mile away) is that you alone are the one trying to proclaim that UFO = alien craft ( flying saucer ) whenever it suits your argument while still using it in its normal sense as an acronym for unidentified flying object in other cases (for example "UFO Reports"), on some occasions even being so self-contradictory as to use both meanings within a single sentence.


In contrast I've already provided independent historical documentation and real life examples.


No, you've linked to your own made-up definitions on your own website.

Referring to that as "independent historical documentation"' is hardly likely to fool anyone.


So if nobody here "buys it" it's because they choose to remain willfully ignorant of the facts and the obvious.[/SIZE[/FONT


The fact is that it's quite obvious that the 'U' in UFO precludes your fanciful notion that UFOs are identifiable as alien craft ( flying saucers ).
 
Exactly. If I could reasonably explain it as anything else, then I would be inclined to think it was something else. But that's just not the situation. So although you have sufficient reason not to believe, I don't have that luxury, and it's not like I haven't tried to find other answers that fit. I've considered a lot of things. None of them fit with what was observed to the extent that it provides a reasonable explanation.
I can't really comment about a discussion in the abstract. I have no idea what you observed or what about it would be unexplainable. I have seen things over the years that were surprising. For example, if you see a C-5 Galaxy flying at low altitude, it appears to be hovering like a blimp. I don't know of any other aircraft that gives this illusion although I would imagine that the same would be true of the Russian An-124 Condor and the even larger An-225. I've seen Boeing 747's and they don't have this illusion. I assume this is because the stall speed of a 747 is higher and because the fuselage and wing area is smaller.

Skeptics have tried, and some of them have ended up invoking denial, mockery, ridicule and character attacks because nothing they can offer that is reasonable works.
I'm not sure what you mean by "skeptic". If I see a magician's show then I assume that nothing supernatural is going on. This seems rational rather than skeptical. However, what most people don't seem to quite grasp is that the fact that magicians' shows are based on trickery, misdirection, illusion, and props is extremely strong evidence that things such as clairvoyance and telekinesis do not exist. Otherwise, people with such abilities would surely have gravitated to these types of performances over the years. The notion that animals have psychic abilities is also at odds with things like the Native American sport of bear-smacking or the way that seal hunts were conducted. None of these things are skeptical; they are merely common sense.

I'm not sure exactly what "denial" is other than that line from a comic movie, "Who are you going to believe, me, or your lying eyes?" I'm also not sure about mockery and ridicule. I suppose if you believed that someone was being dishonest then you might accuse them of such and some might do it in a rather sarcastic fashion. I think it would be simpler though to just say why you think someone was being dishonest. The other aspect though is that someone might believe that a claim was either lacking in specific knowledge of the subject area or that the statements were based on faulty reasoning. For example, I have heard some religious fanatics make the argument that being homosexual is bad because if everyone were homosexual then the population would not reproduce and humans would go extinct. This, to me, is an almost textbook case of the Hasty Generalization Fallacy. You could make identical and equally nonsensical arguments about why being a bank teller is bad. I suppose the difference is that a rational person would understand once this was pointed out that the argument was indeed invalid whereas someone of perhaps a lesser amount of personal integrity would ignore it or try to change the subject. You also do tend to find that people who use ridicule in their arguments tend to be the recipients of ridicule. Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort, and Kent Hovind come to mind. How exactly does one respond to an argument of the form, "I don't understand science and refuse to either study science or engage in rational discussion therefore whatever appeals to my prejudices must be more correct"? Ridicule would be understandably tempting in such cases.

Looking through your previous comments in this thread, you've used word like "craft" and "alien". I'm not sure what the circumstances were that would lead you to use these terms. A craft to me is a mechanical construct designed either to carry passengers or one that strongly resembles something that does. So, for example, a Global Hawk, might be described as an unmanned craft because it is big enough to carry people and could be easily mistaken for a piloted aircraft. In contrast, I would not describe a common, remote control airplane as such because it is clearly too small to have people inside. However, craft can be used in a general sense when size is not known (in other words, it could be big enough to carry people). I suppose some people would object to making such statements when there really is no evidence of a solid object. This would be of the form, "I saw a pattern of light that appeared to be a large craft." There really is no reason to assume that a pattern is part of one object unless someone observed maneuvers that would imply a fixed relationship. And then there is context. Military aircraft commonly fly in groups of two, three, or four. So, having an Air Force base nearby would tend to weaken the assumption that a pattern of lights was part of one object. You get similar weak assumptions about height by seeing eye shine without taking into consideration that something could be in a tree. These types of things are only common sense.

Most people would assume that "alien" meant from somewhere other than the Earth. However, I could see it being used in the sense of something that appears to be strongly out of place. For example, if I were on an expedition to the South Pole and came across a hotdog vendor, I could imagine referring to that scene as alien. Again, I would have to have more details to make any specific comments about what you've seen and your conclusions about it.

Can you give an example of skepticism that is not a refutation of unfounded belief? For example, if someone were to claim that they knew that aliens exist, I would tend to doubt that they could make such a claim. The person appears to have an unfounded belief. However, if someone said that intelligent life probably exists elsewhere in the galaxy, then I would have no immediate cause to doubt their reasoning. I recall a doctor stating that "we now know that most colds are spread by shaking hands." This seems to be to be an unfounded belief. Hand washing is very important in hospitals to prevent cross contamination from one patient to another. However, I don't know of any evidence that refutes the idea that the vast majority of colds are transmitted by coughing and sneezing. Now, I do understand that it would seem icky to think you were shaking the hand of someone who just coughed or sneezed into that hand but the chances of contracting a cold because of this seems remote at best. This might appear to be a strong argument simply in favor of being polite even if there is no medical reason. However it might interest you to know that at one office where I worked, surrounded by people with college degrees, half of the men did not bother to wash their hands after using the restroom. On this scale, I'm not sure that a cough or sneeze on the hands really stands out that much.

I assume my posting is on-track for the discussion of skepticism rather than the specific topic of the existence of aliens.
 
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Okay, I looked over some of the postings from the other thread to get some information.

Anyway, because it had landed, and the last time I saw it go down was around 4:00am, I figured it wouldn't be long until dawn, so I figured I'd keep an eye on where it went down, and as soon as it got light enough, I'd do just as you suggested, drive all the way around, hike in and check it out. I was just in the process of getting a really accurate fix based on the landmarks, when it came up and took off.

I'm somewhat reminded of Dick Rutan. He didn't get any sleep the night before he attempted a distance record from Alaska to the Bahamas. During the night of his flight (the second night with no sleep) he said that an alien landed on the wing of his aircraft and insisted that he go to sleep. On the more famous Voyager flight, he felt that it was his duty to fly the aircraft when it was heavily loaded with fuel because he had a lot more flight experience than his teammate, Jeanna Yeager. After flying for hours, he began to imagine that the fuel tank was expanding bigger and bigger and causing the instrument panel in front of it to bulge outward into the cockpit. He had forgotten that he wasn't alone and was trying to push the panel back in until Jeanna asked him what he was doing. These are examples of vivid hallucinations after two nights of sleep deprivation. I would not expect hallucinations after one night of no sleep but it cannot be said that visual interpretation would be as reliable.

My girlfriend's ranch property was up on the bench ( of land ) overlooking the lake on the west side, and there was a clear view for many miles of the mountains north and south along the Columbia Valley, part of the Rocky Mountain Trench.
The object rose about 300 feet before accellerating, and it went north and gained altitude as it went, actually staying in view much further than 25Km. I just used 25Km as an arbitrary number to illustrate the point that nothing we know of can do that from a dead stop that fast.

From this, I can't tell what lake. Ghost Lake is about 10 miles from the mountains. If we are talking specifically about the Columbia River then candidates might be Columbia Lake, Windermere Lake, and Kinbasket Lake. These might give you a 15 mile view up the valley although Kinbasket would be more northwest than north.

It came up from behind the mountain across the lake. There was a glow behind the mountian which was blocking view of the object until it came up over the mountain top. Then the object appeared and descended into the forest in front of the mountain a few hundred meters from the lakeshore, on the other side of the lake and as it landed, you could see the light shining through the trees on the other side of the lake.

This description could possibly be a hot air balloon. They do fly in the area and takeoffs before dawn are not uncommon.

8969943.jpg


The problem is that it took off, stopped for a moment, instantly accelerated into these perfect consecutive figure eights really fast ( about 200 meters wide ), stopped instantly, and landed again. I observed this twice. Then the last time it took off it zoomed north instantly and was gone.

This seems like an odd description. The scale seems wrong for a hot air balloon. This would seem more like the behavior of a helicopter if one were perhaps investigating the area. You would tend to either fly a racetrack pattern or a figure 8.

The distance was known and against the backdrop of the mountian and other landmarks, it was easy to visually estimate the size. Specifically, it was at night and the object was illuminated. As it descended to the forest floor, it lit up the tree tops, so it was possible to determine its width based on the density of the forest and the size of the trees at that point.

It was also much closer than 25Km when it first appeared, directly across the lake ( about 3 Km ).

I can't really tell from this description what the estimated size was or how the distance was figured.

The object rose up about two thirds the height of the mountains, stopped, got really bright, and instantly accelerated up the valley north between the mountains, as far as you could see, which is much farther than the above picture has for a field of view ... leaving a glowing trail of light in its wake.

There isn't much I can tell from this description. I have no idea what "really bright" means and I don't know what the terrain was like. However, we do have an obvious scaling problem. Moving at mach one, it would take about 72 seconds to travel 15 miles. Something moving supersonic would tend to be noticed because of the shock wave but the description seems to be faster than this.

This and preceding post moved from here. Please keep discussion of ufology's claims in this thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
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