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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Rramjet said:
There has never been compelling evidence for ET to have visited the Earth.
That is your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it. However, just because it is your opinion (a mere belief of yours) does not make it a correct opinion. It also constitutes an unfounded assertion. Now you would never propose an unfounded assertion would you RoboT…?
Of course it isn't my opinion. What a silly thing for you to say. If you have compelling evidence for ET visiting the Earth, bring it out. I'm sure others besides myself would like to see it. If you actually mean that you have a mere belief in ET visiting the Earth and want to retrofit any data to fit that, that's fine. Just don't expect me to accept your low standards of evidence for it. Until you can present extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim that ET is visiting us, it remains an unfounded, and dismissed :), assertion.

At Campeche, the creduloids' Waterloo, UFOs displayed the characteristics of intelligent control.
You are simply making up false and misleading statements as you go. For those truly interested in the Campeche incident, where some radar UFOs sparked a search by the aircrew for anything to explain those anomalous contacts - and primed for anything that might provide an explanation, they subsequently mistook “oil well fires” for those contacts - then all the relevant information about the case can be found in the following:

The Campeche Incident (5 Mar 2004)
(http://brumac.8k.com/MexicanDOD5mar04/)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlX7vvYXzxA)
No, you've simply misunderstood the lesson from Campeche. You speak about intelligent control and leap to the proposition that ET is visiting the Earth. It is certainly proper to ask you which planet the UFOs that surrounded the military plane at Campeche came from then, isn't it? Based on the anecdotal account, they exhibited intelligent control and that's your standard. I'm not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding or genuinely confused about it.

No, you are incorrect again, ET is not a plausible explanation, no matter how much you wish it to be.
You see, this is your basic problem in a nutshell. I have presented evidence and logical argument to show why the ET hypothesis might be considered plausible (There is nothing in our knowledge of physics or technology that would rule it out. There is a high probability that earth is not the only life-bearing planet. Many UFO observations display the characteristics of intelligent control and many others also have associated beings). Against that you have posited the mere unfounded assertion that it is not a plausible hypothesis. I have asked you before: What part of claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence do you not understand?
Ah, I see where you are making your mistake now. You simply continue to repeat your unfounded assertions that, based on someone's anecdote of intelligent control, that UFOs must be alien piloted vehicles. Which planet did the ones at Campeche come from? Or if you could describe what the aliens look like, we could see if the associated beings match that description. I'm sure you wouldn't do it the other way around, labeling purported beings as alien without knowing what aliens look like, right? Sorry, your unfounded belief in aliens is dismissed as being without evidence. :)

I'm beginning to see that you engage in this pattern of behavior and it is very dishonest. Please don't continue the same behavior.
Here again is your problem writ large. When I claimed, in relation to the topic of UFOs, that you merely had a faith-based belief about them – I was basing that contention on the evidence that you have only ever put forward mere unfounded assertions in relation to your beliefs about them. When pressed on the issue to present the rationale, the reasons, the evidence or the logical argument to support your assertions – you never do! Thus it is reasonable to assume your beliefs are faith-based – and no different to any beliefs that are put forward for the support of any religion.
No, you put forth your belief system which I have systematically refuted. You don't like the refutations because they upset your belief system. This has been your main problem throughout the thread. Your low standards for evidence allow you to believe that ET is visiting us. And then you outright lie when you say that I haven't shown evidence. I've asked you not to misrepresent my position before. I'm asking you again.

Thus I will continue to call your beliefs out for what they are – and the only way you will ever change that is to begin to present evidence in support of your unfounded assertions (your pleas for mercy just do not cut it with me I am afraid), just like I am going to call out the following statement from you for what it is…
Pleas for mercy...? What the...? Sorry, you'll still have to back up your propositions with evidence. As Sagan so rightly said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I'm not proposing any explanations whatever.

…A big, fat lie.

…and the evidence in support of that contention? See the following:
…the letter has never been ascertained to be genuine, we are only left with HOAX.
So in this case, the most likely explanation is HOAX.
I only proposed that HOAX is the most likely explanation…
Thank you for demonstrating that you lie about me. I state right there that I'm not proposing anything. I've stated it multiple times. While HOAX fits all the evidence, it isn't the only explanation. I'm not sure why you are confused about that also. You continue to believe the answer is aliens, I will certainly allow you to do so. I won't be held hostage to your low standards of evidence, though.

Now given that, demonstrably (that is backed by evidence), all you are doing in this thread is presenting unfounded assertions and lies (and I strongly suspect that is your sole purpose here), I don’t feel it necessary to engage with you any further.
I've already shown the evidence that you are proposing aliens is the answer out of one side of your mouth while not making any propositions at all out of the other. That is your lie. I am not proposing HOAX as the answer for Venezuela. I can't make it more clear for you.

Instead I propose to move on with my agenda – that is to present the research and the evidence for UFOs.
"Agenda" is the mot juste here. But it's already been explained to you why you don't need to show evidence for UFOs. We know UFOs exist. What you haven't shown is evidence for your UFAOs. Why did you drop the "aliens" part of what you were presenting research for? You may want to reread your OP.

Now, back to Delphos and the other parts you cut out of my post so you wouldn't have to reply to them.

Where do you think your version of a process of elimination went so horribly wrong? Was it because your version of research is fatally flawed or is it because you were trying to deliberately mislead? You never have explained his other hoaxes, the "wolf girl" he purportedly saw or the "psychic powers" he purportedly gained. Why will you not discuss those?

As for Venezuela, you've claimed much detail in the purported letter yet when asked for those details, they aren't really there. What was the specific name of the hospital? Leaving that critical detail out is good evidence of HOAXING. Where in specific detail was the house? Leaving out that critical detail is evidence of HOAXING. Note that I'm not proposing HOAX is the answer, just that it fits the evidence. Also note that I've given you reasons for HOAX being the answer, whether you like it or not. You lie when you say that I haven't shown evidence for HOAX. Reread this paragraph if you feel that you will be confused about it in the future.

When will you be doing that barest bit of research into the purported letter in the Venezuela case?

The following is a list of essential reference works for anyone who may be interested in the topic of UFOs – they provide much evidence and research concerning UFOs and commentary on both.

Keyhoe, D. (1950) The Flying Saucers Are Real. Fawcett Publications. New York.
(http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5883)

Ruppelt, E. J. (1956) The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. Doubleday. New York.
(http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17346)
(http://static.lulu.com/items/volume_10/199000/199898/3/print/ReportOnUFOs.pdf)

NICAP (1969) The Truth About the Condon Report. The U.F.O. Investigator. Vol. IV, No. 9. pp 3-5.
(http://www.cohenufo.org/nicapcondon.htm)

Huyghe, P., Trumbore, H. (1996) The Field Guide To Extraterrestrials. Avon Books. New York.
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038078128X/?tag=idealbiz-20)

Clarke, J. (1998) The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning. Omnigraphics Inc.
(http://www.amazon.com/UFO-Encyclopedia-Phenomenon-Beginning-Set/dp/0780800974)
Review (http://www.strangemag.com/reviews/ufoencyclopedia.html)

Hoyt, D. (2000) UFOs, Social Intelligence, and the Condon Committee. Falls Church, Virginia.
(http://www.narcap.org/commentary/ufocritique.pdf)

Stacy, D., Huyghe, P., Trumbore, H. (2000) The Field Guide To UFOs. Harper Collins
(http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Field-Guide-Ufos/?isbn=9780380802654) Review
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1448.htm)

Roe, T. (2004) Aviation Safety in America: Under-Reporting Bias of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and Recommended Solutions
(http://www.narcap.org/reports/008/TR8Bias1.htm)

Vallee, J. (2008) Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults. Daily Grail Publishing.
(http://www.scribd.com/doc/33478326/Jacques-Vallee-Messengers-of-Deception)
Summary (http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Vallee_06.pdf)

I recommend the above reference works for anyone who is genuinely interested in the subject of UFOs. Together they provide key insights into not only UFOs as unexplained phenomena, but how we arrived at the cultural zeitgeist that we experience today concerning UFO phenomena.
Thank you for posting more evidence of you lying when you say that you aren't proposing ET as the answer.

I, for one, won't be held hostage to your low standard of evidence.
 
In response my statement concerning the plausibility of the ET hypothesis:
“There is nothing in our knowledge of physics or technology that would rule it out. There is a high probability that earth is not the only life-bearing planet. Many UFO observations display the characteristics of intelligent control and many others also have associated beings”.
It does not sound plausible to me. The nearest life bearing planet would be far beyond the distance that our electromagnetic signals have reached. We are on a tiny speck in the suburbs of a galaxy. How did these aliens find us?
ET might not have been looking for “us” per se - electromagnetic radiation is not the only means of detecting life:
If we only used radio waves as markers of life, this would exclude all forms of life that have not yet developed the means to emit radio waves. Life has been around for thousands of millions of years, but human beings have used radio waves for less than a century. Malcolm Fridlund, Project Scientist for ESA's Darwin mission says, "If other planets follow the Earth's pattern, it is much more likely that they will be inhabited by dinosaurs or even bacteria than by something that can count."

In the 1970s, the British scientist James Lovelock pointed out that, just by breathing, life affects the composition of the Earth's atmosphere. He suggested looking for similar effects as a way to search with telescopes for life on other planets. You can study the composition of an atmosphere by splitting a planet's light into a rainbow of colours. This 'spectrum' will contain dark lines made by various chemicals in the planet's atmosphere.

Darwin's strategy is to look for oxygen because oxygen is used by some life forms and produced as waste by others. Scientists believe that without life, all free oxygen in a planet's atmosphere would disappear within just four million years, because it reacts so easily with other chemicals. "The best estimates suggest that Darwin will be able to detect the build-up of oxygen caused within a few hundred million years of life's origin." says Fridlund.

(…)

The work will not stop once Darwin completes its survey of the nearest several thousand star-planet systems. Once it finds a living planet, the race will be on to understand the nature of its life forms. That means searching for more specific biomarkers. In future space missions, for example, scientists may use chlorophyll as a biomarker. This molecule allows plants and certain bacteria to use light as an energy source. "Finding the next generation of biomarkers is a very active field of research at the moment." says Fridlund. (http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM7QR39ZAD_Life_0.html)​
Given, for you dafydd, time is obviously a factor, it is therefore not implausible to suppose that (for example) ET might have noted earth as it was some 2 billion years ago (the time of photosynthetic oxygenisation of the atmosphere) and they might have decided to send probes (depending on their circumstances - intelligent machines, androids, or even intergenerational star ships) and by the time they get here, they find us!
 
In response my statement concerning the plausibility of the ET hypothesis:
“There is nothing in our knowledge of physics or technology that would rule it out. There is a high probability that earth is not the only life-bearing planet. Many UFO observations display the characteristics of intelligent control and many others also have associated beings”.

ET might not have been looking for “us” per se - electromagnetic radiation is not the only means of detecting life:
If we only used radio waves as markers of life, this would exclude all forms of life that have not yet developed the means to emit radio waves. Life has been around for thousands of millions of years, but human beings have used radio waves for less than a century. Malcolm Fridlund, Project Scientist for ESA's Darwin mission says, "If other planets follow the Earth's pattern, it is much more likely that they will be inhabited by dinosaurs or even bacteria than by something that can count."

In the 1970s, the British scientist James Lovelock pointed out that, just by breathing, life affects the composition of the Earth's atmosphere. He suggested looking for similar effects as a way to search with telescopes for life on other planets. You can study the composition of an atmosphere by splitting a planet's light into a rainbow of colours. This 'spectrum' will contain dark lines made by various chemicals in the planet's atmosphere.

Darwin's strategy is to look for oxygen because oxygen is used by some life forms and produced as waste by others. Scientists believe that without life, all free oxygen in a planet's atmosphere would disappear within just four million years, because it reacts so easily with other chemicals. "The best estimates suggest that Darwin will be able to detect the build-up of oxygen caused within a few hundred million years of life's origin." says Fridlund.

(…)

The work will not stop once Darwin completes its survey of the nearest several thousand star-planet systems. Once it finds a living planet, the race will be on to understand the nature of its life forms. That means searching for more specific biomarkers. In future space missions, for example, scientists may use chlorophyll as a biomarker. This molecule allows plants and certain bacteria to use light as an energy source. "Finding the next generation of biomarkers is a very active field of research at the moment." says Fridlund. (http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM7QR39ZAD_Life_0.html)​
Given, for you dafydd, time is obviously a factor, it is therefore not implausible to suppose that (for example) ET might have noted earth as it was some 2 billion years ago (the time of photosynthetic oxygenisation of the atmosphere) and they might have decided to send probes (depending on their circumstances - intelligent machines, androids, or even intergenerational star ships) and by the time they get here, they find us!

Hi Rramjet, Darwin was canned a while back but your right our aim is to analyse atmospheres whatever mission it may be. Your point about ET looking and finding earth is valid but it raises fermis paradox. Earth been sending a signal for 2 billion years that it has life but it's never been colonized? Also we have never found any probes or ET relics on earth. I would be extremely disappointed if UFOs were craft piloted by E.T. They come all this way and dont even say hello? pretty ignorant aliens.
 
Hi Rramjet, Darwin was canned a while back but your right our aim is to analyse atmospheres whatever mission it may be. Your point about ET looking and finding earth is valid but it raises fermis paradox. Earth been sending a signal for 2 billion years that it has life but it's never been colonized? Also we have never found any probes or ET relics on earth. I would be extremely disappointed if UFOs were craft piloted by E.T. They come all this way and dont even say hello? pretty ignorant aliens.
Thank you for speaking directly to the substance of the debate.

However, Fermi's paradox makes two huge (and I would suggest entirely unwarranted) assumptions: First that we know what motivates ET (that is how they would act and react toward us if they got here) and second that they have not said “hello”.

It also assumes that we have had no “crashed saucers”. There are some very interesting “crashed saucer” cases that I have not yet presented in this thread. I don’t have the time right now – but it does seem a logical next step … stay tuned!
 
In response my statement concerning the plausibility of the ET hypothesis:

You still haven't demonstrated that ET is plausible. It seems that you are mistaking that word for another similar one "possible". While ET is possible to be visiting Earth, it is implausible due to the distances involved. And it's never been shown to have been the answer for any UFO cases unless you have evidence for it that has been withheld from the world.

You also seem to be considering the plausible mundane explanations to be implausible and the implausible non-mundane explanations to be plausible.

Which would you consider to be more plausible at Delphos?

1. Hoax
2. Aliens

Here is a link to plausible. I think you've been misusing the two words.
 
You still haven't demonstrated that ET is plausible. It seems that you are mistaking that word for another similar one "possible". While ET is possible to be visiting Earth, it is implausible due to the distances involved. And it's never been shown to have been the answer for any UFO cases unless you have evidence for it that has been withheld from the world.

You also seem to be considering the plausible mundane explanations to be implausible and the implausible non-mundane explanations to be plausible.

Which would you consider to be more plausible at Delphos?

1. Hoax
2. Aliens

Here is a link to plausible. I think you've been misusing the two words.

And you’d say black was white and up was down - and back was front too - if you thought it would score you a point?

While “hoax” for some of the UFO cases I have been presenting is possible, there is absolutely no evidence to support the contention. There is however evidence to suggest veracity in those cases - negating the “hoax” hypothesis - thus making it an implausible hypothesis.

While the ET hypothesis is also similarly possible, there is also evidence for its veracity (for example; observations of “nuts and bolts” craft, observations of seeming intelligent control and observations of “beings” in association). That, coupled with the possibility, also makes it a plausible hypothesis (plausible as in seemingly reasonable or apparently valid or credible).

(Oh, and RoboT, you really should stay away from sites such as Wikipedia or Encarta – such sites are not peer reviewed and therefore have no acceptable quality control over the information they present)
 
And you’d say black was white and up was down - and back was front too - if you thought it would score you a point?
You have another term to look up, "non-sequitur". I have no idea what your inane assertion means here or where you came up with that as an answer to my question.

While “hoax” for some of the UFO cases I have been presenting is possible, there is absolutely no evidence to support the contention. There is however evidence to suggest veracity in those cases - negating the “hoax” hypothesis - thus making it an implausible hypothesis.
That's where you are incorrect again. There is evidence to support HOAX. I've explained it to you multiple times. You can only be thought to be deliberately obtuse about it because it serves your agenda.

While the ET hypothesis is also similarly possible, there is also evidence for its veracity (for example; observations of “nuts and bolts” craft, observations of seeming intelligent control and observations of “beings” in association). That, coupled with the possibility, also makes it a plausible hypothesis (plausible as in seemingly reasonable or apparently valid or credible).
No, the ET hypothesis is not "similarly possible", despite your wishing it to be. And you are still misusing the term "plausible". It isn't plausible for ET to visit the Earth, despite your withing it to be. HOAX is both possible and plausible, despite your wishing it not to be.

(Oh, and RoboT, you really should stay away from sites such as Wikipedia or Encarta – such sites are not peer reviewed and therefore have no acceptable quality control over the information they present)
You should actually spend more time at online reference sites. I've been giving you hints right along of where you've misused words and terms and even provided links for you. I advise you to take advantage of these learning opportunities.

Which do you think more plausible at Delphos?

1. Hoax
2. Aliens

And while you're at it, explain why your "research" didn't uncover Ron Johnson's other hoaxes.
 
While “hoax” for some of the UFO cases I have been presenting is possible, there is absolutely no evidence to support the contention. There is however evidence to suggest veracity in those cases - negating the “hoax” hypothesis - thus making it an implausible hypothesis.

Rramjet, if you ever bothered to reply to my post you would be forced to acknowledge my detailed comparison of the leading theories for the Cowgill case rather than making general statements like the above and essentially dismissing arguments without ever addressing the relevant and valid points in them.

While the ET hypothesis is also similarly possible, there is also evidence for its veracity (for example; observations of “nuts and bolts” craft, observations of seeming intelligent control and observations of “beings” in association). That, coupled with the possibility, also makes it a plausible hypothesis (plausible as in seemingly reasonable or apparently valid or credible).

This is yet another conversation that you dropped without responding to valid points. Why should we start over if that's just what you are going to do again?

(Oh, and RoboT, you really should stay away from sites such as Wikipedia or Encarta – such sites are not peer reviewed and therefore have no acceptable quality control over the information they present)

Rramjet, should this advice apply to you as well? Which of your links are to peer reviewed sites? Most that I've followed have gone to websites that don't have anything coming remotely close to "quality control".

Still waiting for you to reply to my post rather than just lying and saying that you have.
 
Rramjet, in case you haven't noticed, you are excoriating people for mirroring your own arguments.
 
Thank you for speaking directly to the substance of the debate.

However, Fermi's paradox makes two huge (and I would suggest entirely unwarranted) assumptions: First that we know what motivates ET (that is how they would act and react toward us if they got here) and second that they have not said “hello”.

It also assumes that we have had no “crashed saucers”. There are some very interesting “crashed saucer” cases that I have not yet presented in this thread. I don’t have the time right now – but it does seem a logical next step … stay tuned!

which museum has the crashed alien flying saucer :confused:

of course we all know you cant point to one. Your theory the gvt is hiding evidence isnt evidence of anything. As soon as an ETH proponent for UFOs falls back on the all encompassing unfalsifiable coverup theory they've lost. It proves they have no good evidence of their claims. (crashed spaceship)
 
which museum has the crashed alien flying saucer :confused:

of course we all know you cant point to one. Your theory the gvt is hiding evidence isnt evidence of anything. As soon as an ETH proponent for UFOs falls back on the all encompassing unfalsifiable coverup theory they've lost. It proves they have no good evidence of their claims. (crashed spaceship)

The evidence that the government is “hiding evidence” is not a theory – it is a documented fact. Take the following case for example - and please note carefully what the government explanations were in relation to the actual evidence (…of course you will have to do some reading – but if you want to post an opinion in this thread then you should do so on the basis of the evidence - rather than from the perspective of a mere faith-based belief):

The Kecksburg UFO Crash (9 Dec 1965)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Kecksburg.html)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Kecksburg.htm)

Unsolved Mysteries: Kecksburg UFO
Thousands see a UFO in the sky above Kecksberg, Pennsylvania.
(http://www.unsolved.com/ufo.html)
Video:
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jt5o6fVm-I)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o9qdoXXxd8&feature=related)

Beaver County Times (10 Dec 1965)
(http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=82AyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4rIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3668,2274894&hl=en)

Leslie Keane
Why Kecksburg? A look at the case in context - Project Moondust and Operation Blue Fly: The retrieval of objects of unknown origin (2002)
(http://freedomofinfo.org/foi/Background_MD_BF2.pdf)
The Cosmos 96 question is settled once and for all (Oct 2003)
(http://www.freedomofinfo.org/news/cosmos-96.pdf)
Keane, L. (2005) Forty Years of Secrecy: NASA, the Military, and
the 1965 Kecksburg Crash. International UFO Reporter. Vol. 30. No. 1.
(http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/kecksburg2.pdf)
FOI Report (Nov 2009)
http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf

UFO Evidence: Various Articles:
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1307.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1315.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1310.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1313.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1297.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1299.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1295.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1314.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1296.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1306.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1312.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1311.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1815.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1305.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1300.htm)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1303.htm)

People in Kecksburg want to resolve what fell from the sky in 1965 (9 Mar 2003)
(http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_westmoreland/20030309kecksburgwestmor1p1.asp)

AAP: NASA has agreed to search its archives once again (26 Oct 2006)
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21494221/)

Guardian: NASA told to solve 'UFO crash' X-File (11 Nov 2007)
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/11/spaceexploration.usa)

Debunker Oberg (7 Jan 2008)
(http://www.jamesoberg.com/statement_nasa_kecksburg.pdf)

Debunker Sheaffer
(http://www.debunker.com/Kecksburg.html)
 
You seem to have a problem determining what a "fact" is. A "fact" is something that can not be denied. This means you have positive proof that the government "hid evidence". Exactly where can you prove that the government purposefully "hid evidence". I only see evidence of the standard problem with maintaining massive amounts of records and files being lost through human error/misplacement (I assume we are talking about the Fragology files). Additionally, There is absolutely no evidence presented that they even had any evidence for Kecksburg in those files!

Feel free to update your llinks and include my take on the matter:

http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/kecksburg.htm

BTW, not everyone in Kecksburg believes a UFO fell in 1965. Some even suggest that others are lying about it. Robert Young wrote some very good articles on the subject for Skeptical Inquirer back in the 1990s.
 
sorry there's no evidence this was a crashed ET spaceship and there's no evidence the gvt is covering up crashed ET spaceships.

I hope you find the proof of ET visitation that you believe in that would be the greatest discovery ever but for me there's no good evidence we have ever been visited by ET.
 
Rramjet, have you given up on ever showing any evidence from your other cases?

I'm still concerned over why you didn't present links for the Delphos case showing evidence of Ron Johnson's other hoaxes. Was it deliberate with the intent to deceive or genuinely shoddy research?

You have continually shied away from addressing those concerns. Until that is addressed, how are we to know that the links you post tell the whole story? I just won't be held hostage to your low standards for evidence nor your shoddy research methods.

Once you've addressed those concerns, then you can address Sodhner's post that you've failed to respond to, then you can address mine HERE which you've failed to respond to.

I have the full list of unanswered questions for you once you've attended to those.
 
You seem to have a problem determining what a "fact" is. A "fact" is something that can not be denied. This means you have positive proof that the government "hid evidence". Exactly where can you prove that the government purposefully "hid evidence".
The you simply have not examined the evidence in the case. That does not surprise me. Perhaps you should read the following:

To this day, no one knows what triggered the interest of the U.S. military, or why the Army was so intent on hiding the object that it threatened civilians with weapons. The subsequent Air Force denial that anything at all came down is even more perplexing, and has led to heated speculation. In the ensuing 40 years, members of the once tightly knit community in rural Pennsylvania have been torn apart by the continuing unanswered questions about what happened. As American citizens, they have not been granted the information due them by law under the Freedom of Information Act. This case addresses issues that go beyond the question of determining the origin of the strange object that as indicated by so many accounts. was recovered by our government that night. (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/kecksburg2.pdf)​

At the scene, officials told residents a meteor crashed. But the next day, both local authorities and the U.S. government declared nothing fell that night and nothing was found. Project Blue Book - the official Air Force investigation into UFOs terminated in 1970 - says that no space debris entered our atmosphere that day. Data from the U.S. Space Command and the Russian Space Agency indicates that whatever came down that day was not a Russian satellite or space probe.

In 2002, I was asked to spearhead a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) initiative sponsored by SCI FI Channel, which attempted to acquire government documents on the Kecksburg case. The next year, I ended up as the plaintiff in a federal, FOIA lawsuit filed against NASA in Washington, DC. After previously promising to conduct an expedited search for files related to the 1965 Kecksburg UFO crash case, NASA had stonewalled and was withholding documents, leaving no recourse but this one. A settlement four years later, in October, 2007, required NASA to provide hundreds of new documents and pay my attorney’s legal fees. NASA’s resulting search, monitored by the court, was completed in August, 2009. (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf)​

BTW, not everyone in Kecksburg believes a UFO fell in 1965. Some even suggest that others are lying about it.
However, two exciting breakthroughs occurred in 2003 that have moved the investigation forward many steps: a scientist’s discovery of physical evidence showing that something crashed through the trees in 1965 at the location designated by witnesses; and the elimination of the possibility that the object was a Russian satellite or any man-made object at all, according to the world’s leading authority on space systems. These two developments demolish the two preferred explanations used by the skeptics that the object was either a meteor (the Air Force explanation) or a Russian satellite and heighten the mystery by further reducing possible conventional explanations. (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/kecksburg2.pdf)​

In your article you come to the conclusion that it was a Russian satellite (“Kosmos 96” - http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/earthly.htm) and state that “UFOlogists are rarely willing to gather scientific data on UFO sightings.” (http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/ashes.htm). However:

Chief Scientist for Orbital Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center, Nicholas L. Johnson, who is recognized internationally as an authority on orbital debris and foreign space systems, has determined that Cosmos 96, the Russian Venera probe that has been considered a possible explanation for the Kecksburg object for decades, did not land in Pennsylvania on the afternoon of December 9, 1965. Furthermore, he states that no other man-made object from any country came down that day.

Debris from Cosmos 96 has been a leading contender as an explanation for the Kecksburg object, due to the fact that it came down early that morning over Canada. Perhaps part ended up in Pennsylvania later, the theory went. The Air Force stated at the time that no space debris entered the atmosphere that day, and that all aircraft and missiles were accounted for. (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/news/cosmos-96.pdf)​

You also make much of the incident as akin to Roswell in that it only became something to talk about many years later (“ In the late 1970's, Kecksburg resurfaced in UFO lore. (…) This was the beginning of the Kecksburg legend.” - http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/ashes.htm), yet from that night and the very next day:

Many persons in the Greensburg area saw the phenomena. State police say there is a fire in the Kecksburg area. They are investigating,. said the 9 o.clock news on KDKA radio in Pittsburgh

Unidentified Flying Object Falls near Kecksburg, Army Ropes off Area. exclaimed the front-page headline on the Greensburg Tribune-Review the next morning. The article said that .the area where the object landed was immediately sealed off on the order of U.S. Army and State Police officials, reportedly in anticipation of a close inspection of whatever may have fallen.. U.S. Army engineers and .Unidentified Flying Object Falls near Kecksburg, Army Ropes off Area. exclaimed the front-page headline on the Greensburg Tribune-Review the next morning. The article said that .the area where the object landed was immediately sealed off on the order of U.S. Army and State Police officials, reportedly in anticipation of a close inspection of whatever may have fallen.. U.S. Army engineers and alerted the authorities. Gatty.s December 10 story, headlined .Unidentified Flying Object Report Touches off Probe near Kecksburg,. recounts that he was denied access to the site, by order of the Army. (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/kecksburg2.pdf)​

Furthermore, in your article you state things like: ”So, based on the new Kecksburg legend, Jim Romansky came from a town about 8-10 miles away” – as if such an act was entirely implausible - yet the Greensburg Tribune stated: “Excitement caused by the apparent landing produced a massive traffic jam,. as hundreds drove to the site from surrounding areas.”(!)

You state such things as: “ However, in the new legend, the military moves in with lightning speed and takes over. Numerous witnesses are presented to show that the military was in charge.” and “ Despite such a large quantity of military vehicles being present…” and “ With all of the soldiers being used to search the area, seal off the woods, guard the firehouse and Hays household, as well as threaten anyone getting in the way, the military now employed a neat trick. They used local teenagers to help misdirect traffic:” and “ It is important that the legend include such activities and large numbers of military personnel because…” and “ One thing missing from the new Kecksburg legend…” – and all of those comments (and many more like them) seemingly designed to poison the well and get people wondering if the military was there at all! Yet there is no doubt the military was there, and in force!

I only see evidence of the standard problem with maintaining massive amounts of records and files being lost through human error/misplacement (I assume we are talking about the Fragology files). Additionally, There is absolutely no evidence presented that they even had any evidence for Kecksburg in those files!
On the matter of the missing NASA files (the “Fragology Files”) Keane notes that they were never given to her by NASA (who claimed they could not find them) “ The two boxes of fragology files from 1962 to 1967 are described as “reports of space objects’ recovery, [and] analysis of fragments to determine national ownership and vehicle origin.” They would therefore be of special interest to the Kecksburg case (see MUFON paper for more details).” ((http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf))

Keane also makes special note of the fact that none of the NASA files she did eventually received under court order even so much as mentioned or referred to Kecksburg:

It’s worth noting that NASA sent no news articles or clippings about this fireball that was seen over at least four states; was noted by astronomers; and was considered to be a spectacular meteor when it occurred. Seen by thousands, it was covered in major papers all over North America - in Boston, Toronto, Ohio, San Jose, for example - and of course throughout Pennsylvania. NASA did send newspaper stories about other meteors and fireballs and related events around this time, but not this one. Yet, I suspect this was a bigger, more widely reported story than the ones I was sent. The story of the brilliant orange fireball was widely distributed through UPI and the Associated Press – even picked up by the New York Times – and also made it into the Times of London. Why were none of these news stories in NASA’s files, even though clippings of much lesser, but similar, events were? (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf)​

Obviously there is much more to this story than meets the eye and the fact that you attempt to sweep it under the carpet with out-of-hand dismissals, such as those made in your article, AstroP - simply means that you are not analysing the evidence with an objective eye. You are right to be sceptical, but you are incorrect to simply dismiss the evidence in the manner that you do by attempting to obfuscate and cast doubt by poisoning the well. Your conclusions about the case are almost certain to be incorrect (indeed are now known to be incorrect) if you approach it in the biased manner that you obviously do.
 
The you simply have not examined the evidence in the case. That does not surprise me. Perhaps you should read the following:.

This from a site that has no peer review or quality control headed by a person (leslie kean), who has been shown to be highly gullible (read the recent comments by Budd Hopkins wife about her methodology).

1. Officials never stated a "meteor crashed". Can you provide a citation? Nope. They only stated it was a fireball that did not even head towards Kecksburg. Read the actual scientific and peer-reviewed article on the Von Del Chamberlain and Krausse.

2. The research on the matter regarding the "tree samples" turned out to be bogus and the scientists proclaimed it was probably due to ice damage. He felt there was nothing to indicate his tree ring samples supported the claims by Kean and Sci-Fi that it indicated a crash of any kind.(See Mandak, Joe. "Researcher featured on Sci Fi Channel wants NASA 'UFO' records" Times Leader Wilkes-Barre, PA.December 8, 2005.)

3. There is no indication of any deliberate cover-up in the case of Fragology files. They were simply lost.

In your article you come to the conclusion that it was a Russian satellite (“Kosmos 96” - http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/earthly.htm) and state that “UFOlogists are rarely willing to gather scientific data on UFO sightings.” (http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/ashes.htm).

A complete misrepresentation of what I wrote. I added the question mark to suggest this was a theory proposed by Oberg and others. Since I wrote the article about the history of the case, it needed to be discussed. I NEVER concluded it was a russian satelllite. If you read the article I wrote, I stated the following:

This argument began to fail simply because there was no evidence that an actual recovery had occurred and nothing could be found to suggest that the capsule had come down in Pennsylvania...
This could have been the reason that Bluebook had sent the AF personnel from Oakdale to look into the case in the first place. How many times during bluebook did the USAF immediately send personnel chasing a crashed spaceship report? Not often as far as I can tell. If the USAF had thought that a piece of Soviet hardware had fallen into the US, it would need to be identified and recovered rapidly. However, it seems unlikely that a piece of Kosmos-96 actually made it to that remote Pennsylvania area and the records show that nothing at all was found.

With the Kosmos-96 spacecraft becoming an ever increasing unlikely source of the stories being told, one now questions if anything really crashed that evening and the new Kecksburg legend is simply wild tales being told by publicity seekers
.


Notice I never stated that it was the cause of the event.

You also make much of the incident as akin to Roswell in that it only became something to talk about many years later (“ In the late 1970's, Kecksburg resurfaced in UFO lore. (…) This was the beginning of the Kecksburg legend.” - http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/ashes.htm), yet from that night and the very next day:


Like Roswell, there was excitement about something but it was not a crashed disc. If you read Bob Young's article on the subject, you will discover that many of the headlines and stories are exaggerations. There is no evidence that the ARMY was ever present. It was just a few airmen and officers from the nearby AF base. The state police were the ones who took charge as they were trying to prevent all sorts of individuals from interfering with the actual investigation by local officials and the few AF personnel who came to check it out. There was a fire but it had nothing to do with a crash.

Yet there is no doubt the military was there, and in force!

What evidence do you have to support this? At best, we have five or so AF personnel being present. If the military (specifically the army) were there in force, where did they come from? Name the nearest Army base that sent personnel to the Kecksburg area. Where is the documentation that demonstrates this happened as you seem perfectly willing to believe? You don't move hundreds of men with their equipment late at night without some sort of commotion and documentation. Yet, the only actual mention (other than exaggerated headlines) of military personnel in the media at the time were seeing a few individuals in AF/military uniforms.

On the matter of the missing NASA files (the “Fragology Files”) Keane notes that they were never given to her by NASA (who claimed they could not find them) “ The two boxes of fragology files from 1962 to 1967 are described as “reports of space objects’ recovery, [and] analysis of fragments to determine national ownership and vehicle origin.” They would therefore be of special interest to the Kecksburg case (see MUFON paper for more details).” ((http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf))

And there is no evidence they were purposefully hidden as in a cover-up as you claimed in your post. You stated, "The evidence that the government is “hiding evidence” is not a theory – it is a documented fact." Yet you have still not established this as a FACT. For somebody who has spent months arguing about the semantics surrounding ECREE, you seem to have a poor understanding what a FACT really is. The general acceptance of the term fact is something that is accepted by all to be true. Show your evidence of how you can prove that the cover-up is a FACT because what you have presented so far are unsubstantiated claims.


Obviously there is much more to this story than meets the eye and the fact that you attempt to sweep it under the carpet with out-of-hand dismissals, such as those made in your article, AstroP - simply means that you are not analysing the evidence with an objective eye. You are right to be sceptical, but you are incorrect to simply dismiss the evidence in the manner that you do by attempting to obfuscate and cast doubt by poisoning the well. Your conclusions about the case are almost certain to be incorrect (indeed are now known to be incorrect) if you approach it in the biased manner that you obviously do.

Obviously, you have little knowledge on the subject and are simply parrotting what these non-peer reviewed websites state. Have you even read the scientific papers regarding the fireball that night? The fireball over the Great Lakes is supposedly what landed in Kecksburg. However, all the observations and data gathered in the weeks after the event demonstrated it did not even head towards Kecksburg. Those are the real FACTS about Kecksburg.
 
Once you've addressed those concerns, then you can address Sodhner's post that you've failed to respond to, then you can address mine HERE which you've failed to respond to.

Sorry RoboTimbo, I think he's ignoring us and moving on to yet another case.

Rramjet, how can you expect people to read the mountains of source material you provide for each new case when you refuse to make any effort to resolve the problems with the ones you've already presented?
 
This from a site that has no peer review or quality control headed by a person (leslie kean), who has been shown to be highly gullible (read the recent comments by Budd Hopkins wife about her methodology).
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for civility.
Keane was thought enough of by the SCIFI Channel to spearhead a FOIA courtcase for them against NASA - and such cases don’t come cheap (and a case she won in case you hadn’t noticed).

1. Officials never stated a "meteor crashed". Can you provide a citation? Nope. They only stated it was a fireball that did not even head towards Kecksburg. Read the actual scientific and peer-reviewed article on the Von Del Chamberlain and Krausse.
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for civility.


Del Chamberlain, V. and Krausse, D., J. (1967) The Fireball of December 9, 1965 – Part I. Calculation of the Trajectory and Orbit by Photographic Triangulation of the Train. Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada Vol. 61, No. 4. (pp.184-190(http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/...GH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf).

Perhaps though you have not read the following article:
An Analysis of the "Kecksburg UFO" Fireball Trajectory and Possible Error

”Skeptics of the 1965 Kecksburg crash love to cite a 1967 astronomical journal article as "proof" that there was no Kecksburg object, but analysis shows numerous faults in in the paper, including an impossible result…” (http://www.roswellproof.com/kecksburg_triangulation_error.html#anchor_43)
​
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for civility.
let me just state that it is the content of the message that counts, not who states it.

2. The research on the matter regarding the "tree samples" turned out to be bogus and the scientists proclaimed it was probably due to ice damage. He felt there was nothing to indicate his tree ring samples supported the claims by Kean and Sci-Fi that it indicated a crash of any kind.(See Mandak, Joe. "Researcher featured on Sci Fi Channel wants NASA 'UFO' records" Times Leader Wilkes-Barre, PA.December 8, 2005.)
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for civility.
what do we find in the actual article (http://www.cosmicparadigm.com/ufonews/sci-fi-channel-sues-nasa-alleges-ufo-cover-up/)?
” Geoarchaeologist J. Steven Kite says he found no evidence to support the high-speed impact of a meteor or other large object – which Kean says supports witness accounts that a spacecraft landed softly.”
​
That’s it! Now that simple statement does not exactly support all you have claimed in your statement above – does it. In fact it does not support it at all! Perhaps though you have another source that can? Until then (you guessed it) claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

3. There is no indication of any deliberate cover-up in the case of Fragology files. They were simply lost.
Sure, as you say. But one must question why NASA fought so hard – over many years – and stonewalled to the extent that the Judge in the case reacted:
”Judge Emmet Sullivan’s admonishing of NASA in federal court in 2007 highlights this problem and is well worth reading (see my paper at http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/mufon_4.pdf for excerpts). It was very clear he sympathized with our side, and at various points he wondered out loud if he would be forced to implement the last resort: a FOIA trial, something which has never occurred before. Exasperated, he repeatedly asked the attorneys on both sides what they thought he should do. He declared at one point that “heads should role” at NASA, and he called NASA’s case a “ball of yarn,” stating that he sensed my frustration, because he felt it too.” (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf)
​
Then there is this:
” Steitz said that NASA experts studied fragments from the object, but records of what they found were lost in the 1990s. "As a rule, we don't track UFOs. What we could do, and what we apparently did as experts in spacecraft in the 1960s, was to take a look at whatever it was and give our expert opinion," he said. "We did that. We boxed (the case) up, and that was the end of it. Unfortunately, the documents supporting those findings were misplaced."

Naturally, our team was stunned by this announcement. We had a lawsuit in federal court because NASA had never given any answers to questions about the Kecksburg object, and now, suddenly, the agency was saying it was a Russian satellite - even when NASA’s own leading expert checked the records and said it couldn’t possibly be any satellite from any country! Steitz was never willing to reply to my many requests for further information about this statement, such as where the information came from, since he said the documents about it were lost. Without the documents, how would he know?” (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/NASA_lawsuit_conclusion.pdf)
​
How indeed?

I stated:
“ In your article you come to the conclusion that it was a Russian satellite (“Kosmos 96” - http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/earthly.htm) and state that “UFOlogists are rarely willing to gather scientific data on UFO sightings.” (http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/ashes.htm).
A complete misrepresentation of what I wrote. I added the question mark to suggest this was a theory proposed by Oberg and others. Since I wrote the article about the history of the case, it needed to be discussed. I NEVER concluded it was a russian satelllite. If you read the article I wrote, I stated the following:

This argument began to fail simply because there was no evidence that an actual recovery had occurred and nothing could be found to suggest that the capsule had come down in Pennsylvania...
This could have been the reason that Bluebook had sent the AF personnel from Oakdale to look into the case in the first place. How many times during bluebook did the USAF immediately send personnel chasing a crashed spaceship report? Not often as far as I can tell. If the USAF had thought that a piece of Soviet hardware had fallen into the US, it would need to be identified and recovered rapidly. However, it seems unlikely that a piece of Kosmos-96 actually made it to that remote Pennsylvania area and the records show that nothing at all was found.

With the Kosmos-96 spacecraft becoming an ever increasing unlikely source of the stories being told, one now questions if anything really crashed that evening and the new Kecksburg legend is simply wild tales being told by publicity seekers.

Notice I never stated that it was the cause of the event.
Okay, sure, I stand corrected on that particular point. But you are not exactly categorical either, you leave the door ajar with your “increasingly unlikely. I will simply note the following:
”Chief Scientist for Orbital Debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center, Nicholas L. Johnson, who is recognized internationally as an authority on orbital debris and foreign space systems, has determined that Cosmos 96, the Russian Venera probe that has been considered a possible explanation for the Kecksburg object for decades, did not land in Pennsylvania on the afternoon of December 9, 1965. Furthermore, he states that no other man-made object from any country came down that day.” (http://www.freedomofinfo.org/news/cosmos-96.pdf)
​
Which of course also demonstrates that your “UFOlogists are rarely willing to gather scientific data on UFO sightings.” is at the very least false in this case.

Moreover …if not a meteor and not Cosmos 96 (or any other man-made object) …what then? Clearly something came down outside Kecksburg in 1965. Your wave-of-the-hand dismissal (“…one now questions if anything really crashed that evening and the new Kecksburg legend is simply wild tales being told by publicity seekers”) is unwarranted and quite simply beggars belief. The police, the fire-fighters, the military, all the witnesses – they all reacted to nothing? Not likely.

Like Roswell, there was excitement about something but it was not a crashed disc.
It was “acorn shaped” according to the witnesses (and one must ask – if, as you contend, nothing at all came down, how did people arrive at acorn shaped? It would seem a most unlikely shape to come up with if people are simply making things up and lying about it…).

If you read Bob Young's article on the subject, you will discover that many of the headlines and stories are exaggerations
Where is your citation?! And if it is not publically available – then where are the relevant quotes so that we can determine for ourselves if your claims in this regard accurately represent what was stated in the article? This is especially pertinent because we have already discovered (above) that your claims were not supported by the article you referenced – why should we believe you this time?

What evidence do you have to support this?
How about all the eyewitnesses? You may dismiss their testimony with the wave of a hand – but despite this, they do carry some weight.

At best, we have five or so AF personnel being present.
What evidence do you have to support this?

If the military (specifically the army) were there in force, where did they come from? Name the nearest Army base that sent personnel to the Kecksburg area.
I don’t know where they came from. Where did your AF personnel come from?

Where is the documentation that demonstrates this happened as you seem perfectly willing to believe?
Perhaps it has simply been “lost” – just like the fragology files.

You don't move hundreds of men with their equipment late at night without some sort of commotion and documentation.
Not so sure about the “hundreds” – but it does seem clear - according to all who were there at the time - that there was a military presence.

Yet, the only actual mention (other than exaggerated headlines) of military personnel in the media at the time were seeing a few individuals in AF/military uniforms.
So where is your evidence that the headlines were “exaggerated”?
And now you admit that people did see “individuals in AF/military uniforms”?

And there is no evidence they were purposefully hidden as in a cover-up as you claimed in your post. You stated, "The evidence that the government is “hiding evidence” is not a theory – it is a documented fact." Yet you have still not established this as a FACT. For somebody who has spent months arguing about the semantics surrounding ECREE, you seem to have a poor understanding what a FACT really is. The general acceptance of the term fact is something that is accepted by all to be true. Show your evidence of how you can prove that the cover-up is a FACT because what you have presented so far are unsubstantiated claims.
Oh? So what then do you make of the information contained within the following article? I claim it demonstrates clear evidence of a cover-up – what conclusions do you draw?

Keane, L. (2002) Why Kecksburg? A look at the case in context - Project Moondust and Operation Blue Fly: The retrieval of objects of unknown origin. (http://freedomofinfo.org/foi/Background_MD_BF2.pdf)

Obviously, you have little knowledge on the subject and are simply parrotting what these non-peer reviewed websites state.
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for civility.
Have you even read the scientific papers regarding the fireball that night? The fireball over the Great Lakes is supposedly what landed in Kecksburg. However, all the observations and data gathered in the weeks after the event demonstrated it did not even head towards Kecksburg. Those are the real FACTS about Kecksburg.
Sure. Not a fireball. But then (by your own admission) not a meteor and not Cosmos 96 - and according to NASA’s top expert - not any man-made object either …The only way out for the debunker is then to state that all the witnesses were either lying or were mistaken and that nothing happened at all! So why were your “five or so AF personnel” there?
I've taken the unusual step of doing some heavy editing on this post because there is a lot of time spent writing it. Please do not expect this sort of service on a regular basis. Keep your entire post civil or run the risk of losing the whole thing.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
Last edited by a moderator:
^ Yeah, Rramjet, us lurkers would like to hear the answers too. Please don't try to avoid the pending questions.
 
One of the classic UFO cases, the Brown Mountain lights, serves as a case in point for the need for research and also serves to demonstrate how the UFO debunker’s and (so called) sceptic’s out-of-hand dismissals, denial and ridicule is an utterly bankrupt position.

After observations of these mysterious lights going back over 100 years including credible, multiple eyewitness sightings and more recently video, the debunkers insisted on ridicule, denial and out-of-hand dismissal. Moreover, a ”US Geological Survey study began in 1922, which determined that witnesses had misidentified automobile or train lights, fires, or mundane stationary lights.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Mountain_Lights). Brian Dunning of skeptoid.com also states:

” So let's wrap up what we've learned about the two different manifestations of the Brown Mountain Lights. Regarding those that appear in the sky above a ridge, it's apparent that the 1922 USGS report solved it as described in the following conclusion. Today, nearly 90 years later, the lights are coming from different sources but this analysis probably still holds up:

"In summary it may be said that the Brown Mountain lights are clearly not of unusual nature or origin. About 47 percent of the lights that the writer was able to study instrumentally were due to automobile headlights, 33 percent to locomotive headlights, 10 percent to stationary lights, and 10 percent to brush fires."​

As for the lights appearing on the faces of the hills, we find there are no historical references to such a thing, and only a few recent YouTube videos and modern claims reporting it, in this age of LED flashlights, lanterns, headlamps, and iPhone screens. So I'm confident calling this one unexplained, but also not especially interesting or surprising.

It is all too often that we eagerly accept wild and sensational phenomena, which causes us to shut out the real science behind what's going on. I find real wonder in mirage refractions, and I find great excitement in such perfect solutions as the correlation of the locomotive with the 1909 Lights reports. This wonder and excitement are lost to those who replace science with sensationalism.” (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4226)​

…and Robert Sheaffer weighed into the discussion with:

” Why do you say "Lack of serious investigation"? The famous UFO skeptic Philip J. Klass had a whole chapter about them in his book "UFOs Explained" (1974). See chapter 7, "Brown Mountain UFOs."

"The mysterious lights had been investigated in 1913 by D.B. Sterrett of the U.S. Geological Survey, who had concluded that they were simply distant locomotive headlights distorted by refractory atmospheric effects."

So the "lights" were debunked almost 100 years ago. But the Rubber Ducky Effect ("you can't keep a good yarn down") keeps bringing them back every few years.” (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11985)​

Now, after proper, lengthy and concerted, peer-reviewed scientific study, it turns out that the phenomenon has been discovered for what it actually is… reproducible plasma balls of geological origin similar to ball lightning! (http://shadowboxent.brinkster.net/brownplasma.html). See video coverage of the lights and investigation here (http://shadowboxent.brinkster.net/brownmountain2.html).

So in this case we can see how bankrupt the (so called) “sceptical” position really is. We can see clearly how the “sceptics” simply refuse to acknowledge the evidence. We can see clearly how their default position of ridicule and denial actually prevents proper investigation (previous investigations obviously bought into the sceptic’s “nothing to see here, move along” school of thought) and we can see how the “sceptical” position actually relies on the “received wisdom” beliefs from the bankrupt pronouncements of debunkers such as (the late) Phillip Klass. Finally, we can see clearly how the “sceptical” position is based not on the evidence but on a mere faith based belief: “It cannot be, so it isn’t”.

Should we expect to see the debunkers and so called sceptics, in the face of the evidence surrounding this case, retract their ridicule and denial anytime soon? I doubt it. Faith based beliefs never die.
In response to my request for the name of the publishing journal I received a pm from Rramjet, explaining that his response to my post had been moderated. His post was basically an accusation that I had an ulterior motive in that I knew that the report had not been "published in a (recognised, peer-reviewed scientific) journal" and that I would instantly dismiss it on those grounds. I assured him that wasn't the case, because It isn't. Lack of peer review does not make research wrong, although it does raise questions, and requires that greater scrutiny be brought to bear. However, non-peer-reviewed work can be completely valid. In response Rramjet sent me a text copy of the report.

At this point I'd like to point out that I am not going to attempt to refute the findings of the report, or its methodology. There are two reasons for this, firstly I can find no specific problems with the report itself or the stated methodology, and secondly if there were any problems I would be unlikely to find them because the report gives insufficient detail of the field readings or experimental setup used. Their explanation of the phenomenon may well be accurate, but there really isn't enough information in the report to say for certain. However, it certainly sounds plausible enough. There are issues I'd like to raise if I were peer-reviewing the report, but they're really just details and not relevant to what I want to discuss. On the face of it the report seems reasonably written, and their conclusions are not overblown. They don't claim to have definitively solved the case, but suggest that their explanation is the most reasonable based on the available data.

What I want to discuss is Rramjet's presentation and characterization of the report.

He uses the report to, essentially, ridicule skeptics. He claims that the report represents a "proper, lengthy and concerted, peer-reviewed scientific study" and that "it turns out that the phenomenon has been discovered for what it actually is… reproducible plasma balls of geological origin similar to ball lightning!"

Let's consider the second statement first. The report states
to the best of our ability, we have pursued the mystery of Brown Mountain, and we feel our experiments in the lab, based on fifteen years of research, have yielded the only explanation for the lights that is consistent with the data we've gathered.
and
our current conclusion is certainly the most supportable based on obtainable data.
There's more detail in the report, but the conclusion is essentially that they believe the results are the best explanation based on available data, although it isn't definitive.

That's a reasonable conclusion to draw. They admit that their lack of funding limits their equipment and their ability to take measurements, and acknowledge that they are doing the best they can within their limits.

Let's contrast that with Rramjet's characterization of the report's findings;
it turns out that the phenomenon has been discovered for what it actually is
That certainly isn't what the report says. So Rramjet is overstating the conclusions of the report.

Let's move on to the first statement, the one in which Rramjet describes the report as the result of
proper, lengthy and concerted, peer-reviewed scientific study
So, how does this statement marry up to the report.

Was the study proper? Well, it's hard to say for certain. Although their basic approach seems to have been sound enough their equipment (as they admit) was less than ideal. Again, I must note, this does not invalidate their finding, and is certainly not sufficient to dismiss the study. Without more details I must conclude that the study appears to have been conducted in a reasonable scientific manner with scientific truth as the principal objective, so I'll come down on the side of this being a "proper" study.

Was it lengthy? With 15 years invested (although it should be noted that that's on a part-time basis) it most certainly does constitute a long term study.

Was it concerted? 15 years? I'd say that's a definite yes.

Okay, next we have to ask, was it peer-reviewed? Here we start to run into problems. The reason I asked which journal the report was published in is because almost all peer-reviewed scientific research is published in journals. Peer-review generally refers to the process by which journals accept or reject scientific reports.

So what is peer-review? In simple terms, peer-review is where a scientist in the same (or closely related) field of study reviews the methodology, results and conclusions of a scientific study and makes recommendations to the journal and / or the author(s) of the study. These recommendations can be to publish the study as is, to publish it subject to some minor changes, or to refuse publication until major changes are made and / or further research has been conducted. There are other important aspects of peer-review. First, the reviewer should be someone with a good publication history of their own, i.e., someone who knows what should be included in a valid study, knows what previous literature on the subject is relevant and what the author(s) may have failed to include, knows how to present the findings in an appropriate manner, and knows what conclusion can be legitimately drawn from the results. Secondly the reviewer must be guaranteed anonymity if they want it. Thirdly, the reviewer should have no immediate connection to the study or any of the study participants - you cannot review a study in which you have been involved, you cannot review a study by someone with whom you have recently (usually within the last 3 to 5 years) conducted a study, and you cannot review a study by anyone who works in the same department or institution as you do. This is because all of these introduce potential bias.

So, to recap, a peer-reviewer should be an acknowledged published expert in the field, guaranteed anonymity and not involved in the research or a close colleague of any of the authors.

So how do the "peer-reviewers" measure up to those standards in this case. To start with, I must say that the report does not claim to be peer-reviewed, that's Rramjet's claim. The report states that they
consulted with numerous experts in specialized fields
who
provided valuable guidance and feel our current conclusions have merit.

The author names four of these experts; David Hackett, Charles A. Yost, John Connor and Robert E. Messick.

The following is not meant in any way to diminish the standing, demean the characters or in any way belittle the people it refers to, it is simply an assessment of their qualifications to act as valid peer-reviewers for a scientific report.

David Hackett is listed in the report as
a former nuclear engineer at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and member of the ORION--Oak Ridge Isochronous Observation Network--team that researched the lights in the 1970s and 80s
which sounds very impressive. Unfortunately he doesn't appear to be a published scientist (I couldn't find any papers by him, or to which he contributed, although my search was not exhaustive) and ORION is not associated with ORNL, but is actually an amateur astronomy group in the Oak Ridge area. That doesn't mean that he isn't an experienced experimentalist, and he would have been very useful in helping to design the laboratory experiments, but he isn't qualified to properly peer-review a scientific report, and he was involved in the project which disqualifies him as a peer-reviewer anyway.

Charles A. Yost is described as
a NASA engineer, in the NASA Hall of Fame, who worked on the Apollo projects and now operates the "Electric Spacecraft" lab and scientific journal
. Very impressive, although he never published any peer-reviewed research, instead setting up his own journal called "Electric Spacecraft Journal". His personal research interests were in electric phenomena, and hence his involvement in this project. As far as I can tell, and it's difficult because there are no direct references, it is Yost's ESJ that published this report. So from a peer-review standpoint he wasn't an acknowledged published expert in the field, he was involved in the project, and he was the founder of the journal in which the report was (apparently) published. Again, this doesn't mean that he wasn't useful in helping to design experiments or offering constructive advice, but he most certainly isn't qualified for peer-review.

John Connor is described as
a professional geologist in North Carolina
which sounds far less impressive. And indeed, he is a private contractor working out of his own home, with no published research history. Again, this doesn't mean that he isn't extremely familiar with the geology of the area of Brown Mountain, and able to supply great detail about the local geology which would be invaluable to the project, but he isn't qualified for peer-review.

Lastly, Robert E. Messick, who is described as a
Primary Forest Researcher
although I can find no listing for him anywhere outside the report.

This means that Rramjet's purported peer-review consists of four people (maybe more, although apparently not noteworthy), only one of whom appears to have a PhD, none of whom published a peer-reviewed paper, all of whom were involved in the project to some extent, and one of whom is the founder of the journal in which the report seems to have been published.

This is not, by any stretch of the imagination, peer-review, although Rramjet insists that it absolutely, definitively, was properly peer-reviewed. I can only conclude that he has no idea of what constitutes proper peer-review.

However, I must stress again, that this does not invalidate the findings of the report. I can find no fault with the report itself, the methodology used or the conclusions reached, which are properly given the relevant cautions of the limitations of the project.

No, my problem is with Rramjet's presentation of the findings of the report as certified fact (something the report doesn't state), and his characterization of the report as a "peer-reviewed scientific study" (which it demonstrably isn't). He presents this report as though it were carried out by seasoned professional scientists, experts in the field, and a properly peer-review published work. It isn't.

Again, that doesn't make the report wrong, but it does make Rramjet's presentation of it, and by association his use of it to ridicule "skeptics", misleading at the very least. Had he presented it simply as "a plausible mundane explanation derived from scientific research" I would have no problem, but he went out of his way to overstate the strength and validity of the report's findings, well beyond the conclusions of the report itself.
 
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