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U.S. Supreme Court backs prayer before government meetings

applecorped

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/05/us-usa-court-prayer-idUSBREA440FO20140505

"The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday gave local government officials across the United States more leeway to begin public meetings with a prayer, ruling that sectarian invocations do not automatically violate the U.S. Constitution. The court said on a 5-4 vote that the town of Greece in New York state did not violate the Constitution's ban on government endorsement of religion by allowing Christian prayers before monthly meetings."


It should have been voted down.:cool:
 
They should have mandated it. How else are we going to keep Satan (who is totally a real person!) out of our government?
 
In today's decision Justice Anthony Kennedy cited Marsh v. Chambers, a 1983 case, in which SCOTUS held:

The practice of opening sessions of Congress with prayer has continued without interruption for almost 200 years, ever since the First Congress drafted the First Amendment, and a similar practice has been followed for more than a century in Nebraska and many other states. Link

In that case a Nebraska state senator had sued Nebraska in federal court, claiming the state legislature's practice of opening sessions with a state chaplain leading a prayer was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
 
In today's decision Justice Anthony Kennedy cited Marsh v. Chambers, a 1983 case, in which SCOTUS held:

The practice of opening sessions of Congress with prayer has continued without interruption for almost 200 years, ever since the First Congress drafted the First Amendment, and a similar practice has been followed for more than a century in Nebraska and many other states. Link


Ah, the good old appeal to tradition.
 
I, for one, can't wait to see a prayer from the Qu'ran read at the start of a legislative meeting now...

Oh, right, that's not the 'right' kind of prayer.
 
Some people are unclear on the concept

Roanoke County’s Board of Supervisors may be headed toward another discussion of prayer following a U.S. Supreme Court ruling handed down Monday. The board dealt with the matter in 2012, eventually passing a nonsectarian prayer policy that Supervisor Al Bedrosian is ready to strike from the books.

“The freedom of religion doesn’t mean that every religion has to be heard,” said Bedrosian, who added that he is concerned about groups such as Wiccans and Satanists. “If we allow everything … where do you draw the line?”

The supervisor campaigned on the idea of eliminating the policy, and the ruling has breathed new life into his idea for a policy that could lead to the exclusion of non-Christian groups from the invocation.

Commenting on Monday, Bedrosian said he envisions a setup by which the supervisors would approve, individually, people from their districts to offer the opening prayer. That system would hold supervisors accountable to their districts, he added.

When asked if he would allow representatives from non-Christian faiths and non-faiths, including Jews, Muslims, atheists and others, the Hollins District supervisor said he likely would not.

http://m.roanoke.com/news/local/roa...212-d4a5-11e3-81c0-0017a43b2370.html?mode=jqm
 
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Well, that didn't take long, did it? Hopefully, the city has a decent attorney who can explain to this idiot, using small words if necessary, "no, Al, that's not what the Court's ruling means- in fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what they said." Maybe he could even get across the idea that the reason for the Constitutional concept is to keep government (on any level) from ever having, or needing, the power to "draw the line" to begin with.
 
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“The freedom of religion doesn’t mean that every religion has to be heard,” said Bedrosian, who added that he is concerned about groups such as Wiccans and Satanists. “If we allow everything … where do you draw the line?”
If you'll pardon the phrase...

Oh my god.
 
If you'll pardon the phrase...

Oh my god.

What's so surprising? Isn't this the very reason that government exists? To sort out religious disputes! To decide which religions are worthy and which are not! To privilege organizations and people who observe the "right" religions, and to offer disincentive to those who observe the "wrong" ones! To decide issues of supposed monumental importance without a scrap of evidence!
 
What's so surprising? Isn't this the very reason that government exists? To sort out religious disputes! To decide which religions are worthy and which are not! To privilege organizations and people who observe the "right" religions, and to offer disincentive to those who observe the "wrong" ones! To decide issues of supposed monumental importance without a scrap of evidence!

Wrong. The government has gotten so out of control regulating things like consumer fraud, pollution, and health care, that they've gone away from Constitutional Conservatism that our Founders envisioned. The only reason they haven't gotten into religion is that they've been too busy! Once we free them from the burden of keeping the air clean, or the Job Creators honest, or the doctors helping the poors, they'll have lots of time left over to settle sectarian disputes (in our favor, of course), and cast out the infidels.

And then we'll finally get to enjoy the utopia of Limited Government.
 
I can't imagine how anyone can believe politics is improved by adding religion, or religion by adding politics. Surely it's insulting to at least one of the two to do so?
 
I, for one, can't wait to see a prayer from the Qu'ran read at the start of a legislative meeting now...

Oh, right, that's not the 'right' kind of prayer.

To be quite fair, there has been some movement in being more inclusive. Last year a Washington imam was brought in for a highly nondenominational prayer.

Still stupid, granted.
 
I can't imagine how anyone can believe politics is improved by adding religion, or religion by adding politics. Surely it's insulting to at least one of the two to do so?

I doubt that it's so much actual improvement they're after as simple empowerment ("embiggenment" would be a better word if it was a real one). It's not quality they're after, just quantity- adding religion to politics means more votes, and adding politics to religion means...well, in the end, it means more votes.
 
Wrong. The government has gotten so out of control regulating things like consumer fraud, pollution, and health care, that they've gone away from Constitutional Conservatism that our Founders envisioned. The only reason they haven't gotten into religion is that they've been too busy! Once we free them from the burden of keeping the air clean, or the Job Creators honest, or the doctors helping the poors, they'll have lots of time left over to settle sectarian disputes (in our favor, of course), and cast out the infidels.

And then we'll finally get to enjoy the utopia of Limited Government.

What do you expect? There isn't one real christian on the court any more.
 
To be quite fair, there has been some movement in being more inclusive. Last year a Washington imam was brought in for a highly nondenominational prayer.


On the other hand, the story cited in post #8.
 
What no one seems to explain is why prayer is needed AT ALL. Let's look at what Justice Kennedy said:
The prayer was intended to place town board members in a solemn and deliberative frame of mind, invoke divine guidance in town affairs, and follow a tradition practiced by Congress and dozens of state legislatures.
...
In rejecting the suggestion that legislative prayer must be nonsectarian, the Court does not imply that no constraints remain on its content. The relevant constraint derives from its place at the opening of legislative sessions, where it is meant to lend gravity to the occasion and reflect values long part of the Nation’s heritage. Prayer that is solemn and respectful in tone, that invites lawmakers to reflect upon shared ideals and common ends before they embark on the fractious business of governing serves that legitimate function.
...
These religious themes provide particular means to universal ends. Prayer that reflects beliefs specific to only some creeds can still serve to solemnize the occasion, so long as the practice over time is not "exploited to proselytize or advance any one, or to disparage any other, faith or belief."
...
While these prayers vary in their degree of religiosity, they often seek peace for the Nation, wisdom for its lawmakers, and justice for its people, values that count as universal and that are embodied not only in religious traditions, but in our founding documents and laws.
Ah, okay, got it.
  • Create solemnity and gravity.
  • Get people in the right frame of mind.
  • Speak of values, ideals and goals of common interest.
  • Ask for divine guidance.
It is the last one on the list that is out of place. Leaving aside the point that such a request has NEVER in history resulted in a single verified incidence of the most powerful entity in the universe ever overtly guiding anyone or any governmental body, the request is purely religious and for that reason alone is not properly part of a governmental function.

As for the other things, there is no reason that they have to be done in the form of a prayer. For that matter, there is no reason that they need to be done by clergy.

There is no need to invoke a deity to create solemnity or get people in the right frame of mind, or speak of matters of common interest. Anyone capable of writing a decent speech could do it. (In Canada, they do it all the time!) Prayer isn't the only thing that is solemn, or aspirational, or that deals with ethics, or that reminds people of mutual interest. So why do those who pray get to take the soapbox and nobody else does?

And besides, even if a prayer is solemn and reflective and aspirational and value-laden and uplifting and traditional and historical and ceremonial and edifying and all those good things ... it is also religious. Those other things do not excuse that the prayer is religious. This is a government-sponsored, government-run, government-regulated religious activity in a government building on government time. If it is important, before conducting government business, to be solemn and reflective and aspirational, etc., FINE ... but leave the religion out of it.

Now, is that so goddamned hard??
 
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