Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

[quadraginta]

This is a really simple dilemma to solve. If we don't allow the mosque to be built we'll offend the Muslim community and go against the basic premise of the Constitution.

On the other hand, if we build the mosque in this specific site where so many 9/11 victims' family members and other New Yorkers will be brutally offended, we have accomplished nothing in terms of understanding and bridge building.

SOLUTION?

Build it, but build it somewhere else. It really is that simple. The constitution allows it to be built, but common decency and understanding (which seems to be what this cultural center is all about) suggest it should be built in a less strategic area.

<snip>

Wrong.

Over 70% of the country seems to have a problem with the location of this mosque/center. Again, it's the LOCATION of Park51 most people are protesting. To call such an enormous chunk of Americans "bigots" is blatant ignorance. And "bigots" for what exactly? Sure, there are Americans who fear and despise "the other" (especially Muslims and Arabs post 9/11) but the majority of Americans are in favor of a mosque/center being built in NYC -- just not two blocks from ground zero.

What you're implying is extremely unfair. You're equating the opposition of Park51 with racism, bigotry and intolerance.

<snip>

I think you're right. They could build it in Murphreesboro, TN instead.

That way the arsonists wouldn't have so far to travel.

(Not that I'm saying all arsonists are intolerant, racist bigots, you understand. That would be unfair.)

 

[JonathanS]

If there's one thing I've learned about discourse over the internetz it's that one should never argue with a crowd of ravenous leftists. One of you will end up pulling a Godwin on me and lump me in with the tea party crowd.

All I have to say is that my right to protest this project is as constitutional as the Imam's right to build it and I'll leave it at that.

 

[quadraginta]

If there's one thing I've learned about discourse over the internetz it's that one should never argue with a crowd of ravenous leftists. One of you will end up pulling a Godwin on me and lump me in with the tea party crowd.

All I have to say is that my right to protest this project is as constitutional as the Imam's right to build it and I'll leave it at that.

Which ravenous leftists in this thread have been disputing that?

 

[Chaos]

If there's one thing I've learned about discourse over the internetz it's that one should never argue with a crowd of ravenous leftists. One of you will end up pulling a Godwin on me and lump me in with the tea party crowd.

All I have to say is that my right to protest this project is as constitutional as the Imam's right to build it and I'll leave it at that.

Nobody ever claimed that bigotry is unconstitutional - only that it´s bigotry.

 

[I Am The Scum]

If there's one thing I've learned about discourse over the internetz it's that one should never argue with a crowd of ravenous leftists. One of you will end up pulling a Godwin on me and lump me in with the tea party crowd.

All I have to say is that my right to protest this project is as constitutional as the Imam's right to build it and I'll leave it at that.

Fabulous ad hominem! They're so much better when the poster makes no attempt at subtlety.

JonathanS, if being asked to provide evidence for what you say is too much for you to handle, then don't leave angry. Just leave.

 

[Taarkin]

All I have to say is that my right to protest this project is as constitutional as the Imam's right to build it and I'll leave it at that.

Yes, it is legally permissible to be extremely wrong about Park51. The question is, why do you choose to be extremely wrong about Park51? Don't you think it would be better if you were right about it instead of wrong?

 

[JonathanS]

Evidence for what exactly?

And speaking of evidence, how about disclosing where the money funding this project will come from? How about disclosing the full roster of investors to the American public? How about proving that the Imam has absolutely no ties to any Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals -- WITHOUT beating around the bush, using strawman arguments and actually answering the questions being asked of him?

Oh no wait.. I'm just being an Islamophobic bigot again right? I have no right to ask for evidence without being called a racist bigot.. well, to be fair, I automatically assume that those of you attacking me and others who oppose this location are "ravenous leftists" so I guess we're even.

At the end of the day it's going to be built and it's going to be built in the proposed location so it doesn't really matter, does it. You win. Good for you and god bless America.

 

[Meed]

This is a really simple dilemma to solve. If we don't allow the mosque to be built we'll offend the Muslim community and go against the basic premise of the Constitution.

On the other hand, if we build the mosque in this specific site where so many 9/11 victims' family members and other New Yorkers will be brutally offended, we have accomplished nothing in terms of understanding and bridge building.

SOLUTION?

It's not a dilemma. Victims' family members don't have a right to not be offended. No one does. The people offended can get over it -- otherwise tough ****. The KKK get police protection and no one's stopped Phelps' church from protesting veterans' funerals. And they're actually trying to be offensive. Likewise, the Muslims who get offended by depictions of Muhammed can get over it.

 

[Meed]

At the end of the day it's going to be built and it's going to be built in the proposed location so it doesn't really matter, does it. You win. Good for you and god bless America.

Yes, pretty much this.

 

[AvalonXQ]

And speaking of evidence, how about disclosing where the money funding this project will come from? How about disclosing the full roster of investors to the American public?

What right do you and they have to know what private individuals are spending what money on a private project? Does the public have the right to know where you spend your money?

 

[Taarkin]

And speaking of evidence, how about disclosing where the money funding this project will come from? How about disclosing the full roster of investors to the American public? How about proving that the Imam has absolutely no ties to any Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals -- WITHOUT beating around the bush, using strawman arguments and actually answering the questions being asked of him?

Oh no wait.. I'm just being an Islamophobic bigot again right? I have no right to ask for evidence without being called a racist bigot.. well, to be fair, I automatically assume that those of you attacking me and others who oppose this location are "ravenous leftists" so I guess we're even.

Why don't you make similar demand of every single other developer in the country? Why do you single out a Sufi for special treatment and then throw a hissy fit when you're called a bigot?

 

[A'isha]

And speaking of evidence, how about disclosing where the money funding this project will come from? How about disclosing the full roster of investors to the American public?

"I know there will be interest in our financing, and so we will clearly identify all of our financial backers."

Do some basic research already.

How about proving that the Imam has absolutely no ties to any Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals -- WITHOUT beating around the bush, using strawman arguments and actually answering the questions being asked of him?

No, sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't get to assume something about him and then ask him to disprove it. If you think he has illicit connections, you prove it.

Oh no wait.. I'm just being an Islamophobic bigot again right? I have no right to ask for evidence without being called a racist bigot..

Ask anything you like (especially if you have questions regarding Rauf). I've answered your initial questions above.

Now do us the same courtesy and answer our questions, please.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

No, sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't get to assume something about him and then ask him to disprove it. If you think he has illicit connections, you prove it.

<snip>

We could play by his rules. That would mean we could post our assumptions about him and ask him to disprove those.

 

[marksman]

And speaking of evidence, how about disclosing where the money funding this project will come from? How about disclosing the full roster of investors to the American public?

Park51 has already pledged to make their donor list completely transparent.

How about proving that the Imam has absolutely no ties to any Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals -- WITHOUT beating around the bush, using strawman arguments and actually answering the questions being asked of him?

How about not asking the Imam to prove a negative. He has spoken out against terrorism, Hamas and Hezbollah in the past. Rauf's Cordoba Initiative condemns Hamas on its website. So why don't you -- or anybody -- show us that he has a connection?

I have no right to ask for evidence without being called a racist bigot.

You have every right to ask whatever you like. You have no right to be taken seriously if you continue to ask for evidence after it's been given to you.

 

[JonathanS]

Fair enough. Here's a question:

(From the Cordoba Initiative FAQ) "Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic."

If a Palestinian suicide bomber detonates on a bus filled with innocent Israelis, the Imam will rightfully condemn the act as an atrocious terror attack -- which it is. I'm cool with that.

But does the Imam condemn Hamas for its political agenda and recognize it as a terrorist organization even when it is not physically carrying out rocket attacks and/or suicide bombings? If kids in Gaza grow up watching/reading/listening to Hamas propaganda (cartoons that glorify jihad and killing "evil Zionists and Crusaders", hate filled text books in elementary school, etc), which is not in and of itself necessarily a terrorist attack that kills civilians, does he condemn the Hamas rhetoric and mindset?

I'm asking because I have already lost two high school friends to Hamas terrorism. If someone can answer this question (and prove it) that will be enough for me to join the bandwagon and fully support this project.

 

[DC]

Evidence for what exactly?

And speaking of evidence, how about disclosing where the money funding this project will come from? How about disclosing the full roster of investors to the American public? How about proving that the Imam has absolutely no ties to any Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals -- WITHOUT beating around the bush, using strawman arguments and actually answering the questions being asked of him?

Oh no wait.. I'm just being an Islamophobic bigot again right? I have no right to ask for evidence without being called a racist bigot.. well, to be fair, I automatically assume that those of you attacking me and others who oppose this location are "ravenous leftists" so I guess we're even.

At the end of the day it's going to be built and it's going to be built in the proposed location so it doesn't really matter, does it. You win. Good for you and god bless America.

and how are you going to prove that you have absolutely no ties to Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals?

 

[JonathanS]

and how are you going to prove that you have absolutely no ties to Hamas or Hezbollah linked individuals?

I'm their biggest enemy. Literally. I stand for and am the embodiment of everything those two groups hate.

1. I'm Jewish (well, a hardcore atheist, but to them I'm a Zionist Jew). If you want proof I can show you my c--k.
2. I'm an American citizen.
3. I support the IDF, have two brothers in the IDF and many friends in the US Marine Corp.
4. I despise Islamic terrorism and Sharia law and I'm vocal about it both online and in real life.
5. I would gladly open my bank account for inspection. I'd gladly let anyone search my house, my computer. Tap my phones. Credit cards -- you name it, it's all good.
6. I'd gladly agree to be interrogated and agree to the interrogation of all my friends and family.
7. I'd be willing to participate in any other form of investigation.
8. Give me a microphone and a webcam and I will publicly bash Hamas and Hezbollah with a smile on my face.
9. I will gladly burn a Quran and post it on youtube without wearing a mask.
10. Anything else you can think of..

 

[quadraginta]

Fair enough. Here's a question:

(From the Cordoba Initiative FAQ) "Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic."

If a Palestinian suicide bomber detonates on a bus filled with innocent Israelis, the Imam will rightfully condemn the act as an atrocious terror attack -- which it is. I'm cool with that.

But does the Imam condemn Hamas for its political agenda and recognize it as a terrorist organization even when it is not physically carrying out rocket attacks and/or suicide bombings? If kids in Gaza grow up watching/reading/listening to Hamas propaganda (cartoons that glorify jihad and killing "evil Zionists and Crusaders", hate filled text books in elementary school, etc), which is not in and of itself necessarily a terrorist attack that kills civilians, does he condemn the Hamas rhetoric and mindset?

I'm asking because I have already lost two high school friends to Hamas terrorism. If someone can answer this question (and prove it) that will be enough for me to join the bandwagon and fully support this project.

Read what you posted.

What part of ...

"When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic."

... is confusing to you? Let's start there.

 

[quadraginta]

I'm their biggest enemy. Literally. I stand for and am the embodiment of everything those two groups hate.

1. I'm Jewish (well, a hardcore atheist, but to them I'm a Zionist Jew). If you want proof I can show you my c--k.
2. I'm an American citizen.
3. I support the IDF, have two brothers in the IDF and many friends in the US Marine Corp.
4. I despise Islamic terrorism and Sharia law and I'm vocal about it both online and in real life.
5. I would gladly open my bank account for inspection. I'd gladly let anyone search my house, my computer. Tap my phones. Credit cards -- you name it, it's all good.
6. I'd gladly agree to be interrogated and agree to the interrogation of all my friends and family.
7. I'd be willing to participate in any other form of investigation.
8. Give me a microphone and a webcam and I will publicly bash Hamas and Hezbollah with a smile on my face.
9. I will gladly burn a Quran and post it on youtube without wearing a mask.
10. Anything else you can think of..

Any sleeper agent worth their salt would make all of those claims, at a minimum.

Your strident outrage itself is suspicious ("... doth protest too much.").

What proof can you offer?

 

[JonathanS]

Does the Imam consider brainwashing children an act of terrorism or does he justify it under the pretext of "living under an """occupation"""".

In other words, is this a man who sees Hamas, as a whole, to be a really big problem or does he just see Hamas terrorism (i.e. suicide bombings, rocket and mortars) as the problem. If he opposes everything, and I mean EVERYTHING about Hamas then he's golden.

Condemning terrorist attacks is common place in the Muslim world and in the US and Europe. Calling out Hamas for the all-out terror organization it is is quite rare. Most of the time what you'll hear is that Hamas is guilty of despicable acts of terror BUT they are also a legitimate political party yada yada yada. That's what I DON'T want to hear.

It's not like the guy owes me or anyone else an explanation by the way. I'm aware of that. Just throwing it out there.