Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

[Thunder]

i was not condemning the article. i was condemning the bigots and Nazis who are against Muslim-Americans exercising their Constitutional right to build a house of worship 2.5 blocks away from GZ.

 

[marksman]

The Jewish identity is more complicated than that. You can be Jewish by upbringing and culture without following the religious teachings of modern Judaism. An atheist Jew is still Jewish, and so is a Jew that accepts Christ.
The word "Jew" is more than a religious affiliation, it's a heritage and a culture.

Sorry that I was unclear. When I implied that "they" were not Jewish, I meant the Christians who joined Jews for Jesus to assist the efforts of converting Jews.

I guess the better analogy would be if I, an American, moved to Chinatown, amidst many ethnic Chinese who had become American citizens, and, despite not speaking any of the languages native to China, and having no ancestors who have been to China, and despite never having been to China myself, and despite not knowing very much about Chinese language or culture, declared myself Chinese.

While there's no official organization that determines who is or is not entitled to call themselves "Chinese", very few people would accept my self-description. I would view the Jews for Jesus similarly. While there are Christian Jews in the group, that's not the entirety of its membership. And most non-Messianic Jews do not consider Jews for Jesus to be a Jewish religion (even though there may be, as Parky calls them, "apostate Jews" in its ranks).

And of course, the number of Messianic Jews is very small. It's hard to get an exact number because Messianic churches do not segregate their membership by those who were born Jewish and those who were Christians who simply started attending at a Messianic church. The total (Christian and Jewish) is around 100,000, but how many of them were born Jewish (or were Jewish converts before joining a Messianic church) is anybody's guess. In 2006, Israel surveyed the 5,000 Messianic Jews in Israel -- only 60% (3,000) were Jews before joining the church. Estimating 60,000 Messianic Jews who would be considered Jews by the other Jewish sects, Messianic Jews would constitute less than a half of a percent of all Jews.

 

[Thunder]

A Jew who converts to Christianity...is a lost Jew.

He may celebrate and honor his cultural heritage, but statistics show he will be the last in his family to do so.

Doubt me?

How many Hebrew Christian communities are there that are descendants of the first Christians? None. They all assimililated and melted into Gentile communities where they lived. A Christian Jew..is a lost Jew.

 

[odeed]

Its in the history of the group responsible for pushing this plan to build the mosque there, namely the Cordoba Initiative led by Abdul Rauf. The $100 million slated for this building of this mosque has yet to be fully disclosed apart from those already listed like Qatar. The brunt of the funding still has to be disclosed for this project.

All one has to do is look at previous funders of the Cordoba Initiative and their past associations as the ASMA, Islamic Dialogue, WMC, C-100 Initiative, etc. and their core group members, which includes prominent Saudi academics, Royal Saudi holdings firms, and Saudi royalty political figures, ie Prince Turki Al Faisal.

So the issue here is not whether mosques are being built, but who funds and runs these mosques. The Saudis are definitely not the poster boys of moderation....

One of the Saudi donators to the Cordoba Initiative I have seen mentioned on the anti-mosque blogs, is Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal’s Kingdom Foundation, the same guy owns 7% of News Corp., parent company of Fox News.

 

[Almo]

um...I have yet to see a CTist suggest "the Jews" committed the Crusades.

You just haven't looked hard enough.

 

[bigjelmapro]

One of the Saudi donators to the Cordoba Initiative I have seen mentioned on the anti-mosque blogs, is Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal’s Kingdom Foundation, the same guy owns 7% of News Corp., parent company of Fox News.

And one wonders why Fox is so anti-green/alternative fuel sources?

So we're stuck on this thread yapping about constitutional rights to build a mosque, but missing completely what will occur at this 'moderate' mosque?

So do people actually believe here that building more mosques = moderation? Especially if the brunt of these mosques are financed and preached by wahhabist and other fanatics?

 

[Cleon]

So we're stuck on this thread yapping about constitutional rights to build a mosque, but missing completely what will occur at this 'moderate' mosque?

Praying would be a pretty good guess.

Also, considering the other facilities they have planned, I think we can safely assume the following will also occur:

Swimming
Exercise
Classes
Cooking
Theater.


I didn't think this was much of a mystery.

So do people actually believe here that building more mosques = moderation? Especially if the brunt of these mosques are financed and preached by wahhabist and other fanatics?

This is really stupid for a number of reasons.

#1, Nobody has established that it's being funded by "wahhabist and other fanatics." That's simply an assumption on your part.

#2, It's a rather bizarre idea that there is some sort of relationship between the number of mosques built and whether those mosques are moderate or not.

Since you have a very difficult time accepting the idea of moderate Muslims, I leave you with the words of the mosque's imam:

"We condemn terrorists. We recognize it exists in our faith, but we are committed to eradicate it."

Truly the words of a "wahhabist fanatic."

 

[bigjelmapro]

Thanks for avoiding the actual points Cleon and making the issues innocuous in regular fashion.

As for the funding, refer to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5977498&postcount=133. No assumptions made really. Past initiatives and funding sources are not a secret when it comes to this group. As for the moderation by building more mosques, Islamic leaders including well-known imams have made these statements. Look them up if you wish.

Sounds to me more than you're a spokesperson for this Cordoba Initiative.

 

[DC]

Thanks for avoiding the actual points Cleon and making the issues innocuous in regular fashion.

As for the funding, refer to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5977498&postcount=133. No assumptions made really. Past initiatives and funding sources are not a secret when it comes to this group. As for the moderation by building more mosques, Islamic leaders including well-known imams have made these statements. Look them up if you wish.

Sounds to me more than you're a spokesperson for this Cordoba Initiative.

lol? you link to a post of yours with your claims to backup the claims you made again?

how about backing up your claims, especially as its no secret.

 

[Cleon]

Thanks for avoiding the actual points Cleon and making the issues innocuous in regular fashion.

On the contrary. I addressed your points directly. It's not my fault if they make you feel foolish.

As for the funding, refer to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5977498&postcount=133. No assumptions made really.

No, merely allegations without specifics. Call me unimpressed. I would prefer evidence, not innuendo.

Sounds to me more than you're a spokesperson for this Cordoba Initiative.

 

[Senex]

My knee jerk reaction is religious places don't pay taxes and screw them. My second reaction is followers of the prophet Mohammed have every right as the followers of Jesus to follow whatever bulloney they follow.

Tax exemption is an issue.

 

[bigjelmapro]

On the contrary. I addressed your points directly. It's not my fault if they make you feel foolish.

Nah, you didn't. Could apply the same activities you've provided to the extreme example of the David Koresh compound. But I doubt there would be much interest in their cooking classes. Simple attempt to make wahabbist influence seem innocuous and irrelevant.

No, merely allegations without specifics. Call me unimpressed. I would prefer evidence, not innuendo.

Cordoba Initiative. Look it up. Gave examples. Have no interest in impressing apologists, thanks.

 

[DC]

you have no interest in backing up your claims, because there is nothing to backup your claims.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Another bout of requesting information. Board members and previous associations, as given previously paints another picture.

 

[Cleon]

Nah, you didn't. Could apply the same activities you've provided to the extreme example of the David Koresh compound. But I doubt there would be much interest in their cooking classes. Simple attempt to make wahabbist influence seem innocuous and irrelevant.

Cordoba Initiative. Look it up. Gave examples. Have no interest in impressing apologists, thanks.

Mr. Poe, I salute you.

 

[marksman]

I Googled the Cordoba Initiative and saw nothing untoward. I also googled the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, Karne Armstrong, Samia Farouki, Brad Hirschfield, Julia Armstrong Jitkoff, John Edwin Mroz, Elaine Pagels, and Shashi Tharoor, the members of Cordoba's board. It seems like an outstanding bunch. what specifically gives you pause about this organization?

 

[Thunder]

No one would give a **** if this was a Synagogue, or a Church, or even a Hindu temple.

But because it is a Mosque, the racists and bigots are going nuts.

What if it was 5 blocks away, would that be enough?

Maybe 10 blocks away?

 

[Mycroft]

Community Board is voting whether or not to approve the construction of a 13 story Muslim community center, with a Mosque included, near the World Trade Center.

One man, when intereviewed said: "not only should a Mosque NOT be built near the WTC, but I personally think they should only build Mosques in Saudi Arabia. Muslims have abdicated any right to be called a religion".

Not exactly sure what this old fool was talking about, but it does sadden me that he was indeed Jewish.

You have to love it how our news reporters think it's helpful to report on the amazingly ignorant opinions of random people found on the street.

 

[Mycroft]

I am not sure what the exact status is right now, but my point was the original Fox News report was merely reporting on the status of the project, saying nothing at all about this project being evil or banned or that it should not be built or anything similar, so I fail to see what Parky is getting all excited about, or how he could read what he interpreted it to mean into the OP.

Isn't the issue that it's reported at all? Mosques, Churches, Synagogues and other places of worship get proposed and built all over the place, but only this one makes the national news.

The first bias of the editor is in deciding what does and doesn't get reported.

 

[Bill Thompson]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/1...build-second-smaller-mosque-near-ground-zero/

we cannot have 2 Mosques built near Ground Zero. This is because 9-11 was done by Muslims, and we ALL know...that ALL Muslims...are terrorists.

This is disrespectful to the 3,000 Americans who died on 9-11, and the thousands more Americans who died fighting for the Glory of Christ, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Well, all true muslims are terrorists. But most think Islam is not political and delude themselves into thinking Islam is a religion of peace.