Two arrests - Justice for Stephen Lawrence?

The news report I heard, said the request was from a person unconnected with the case.


Yeah, I've since read the same thing. Whether that's accurate or not is another thing, of course. But it's also entirely possible that a random "Enraged-of-Tunbridge-Wells" Daily Mail reader might have made the complaint, seeing as certain sections of the authoritarian right-wing media were fostering the opinion that the sentences were too light, and were engendering reader comments along the lines of "they should bring back the death penalty for these despicable animals".
 
Joolz, here is the most recently-active thread on Scottish independence, if you want to continue that discussion.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208582

Rolfe.

Thanks, will have a look later. I ended up on that tangent while wondering how we could get rid of Mulholland, which sort of relates to the jeopardy discussion.

Glad I got back on topic seconds before the mod posted :D

I think we need a few more cases like the Lawrence one before we can judge how the new rules are going to be interpreted and applied, one case is not enough data. I'll be watching with interest both sides of the border.
 
Thanks, will have a look later. I ended up on that tangent while wondering how we could get rid of Mulholland, which sort of relates to the jeopardy discussion.

Glad I got back on topic seconds before the mod posted :D

I think we need a few more cases like the Lawrence one before we can judge how the new rules are going to be interpreted and applied, one case is not enough data. I'll be watching with interest both sides of the border.


I agree. However, I think there's no current reason to suggest that the legislation as it currently stands will not result in the desired outcome: that acquitted suspects against whom powerful new evidence becomes available - evidence that cannot have been available at their original trial, and which (in the eyes of a panel of Appeal Court judges) would likely have had a material effect on the verdict in the first trial - should be sent back to trial on the same charges subject to a ruling by the Court of Appeal to this effect.

I think the legislation worked perfectly in the case of the two Lawrence suspects - although this is partly a circular argument, since the legislation was to a degree designed with this specific case in mind. I think it will be very interesting to see how frequently other cases even come before the Court of Appeal on similar grounds. I suspect that very few cases will ever reach this stage, and that of those that do, Appeal Court judges will throw out a fair proportion of them.
 
I hope you're right. As always, it's the rhetoric that worries me. What I'm reading now is, now that double jeopardy has been reformed, which cases should we be re-opening? I really don't like this approach.

If nobody was convicted of the crime, why isn't the case already open? Why aren't the investigators already trying to find out who did it?

If the case continued to be investigated, with an open mind, and more evidence turned up against the acquitted party, fine. However, to leap to re-open the inquiry only after reform of double jeopardy, suggests a continuing belief in the guilt of the acquitted defendant, without any additional evidence. Approaching a new inquiry on that basis is an open invitation to suspect-centred analysis of the material.

Rolfe.
 
I hope you're right. As always, it's the rhetoric that worries me. What I'm reading now is, now that double jeopardy has been reformed, which cases should we be re-opening? I really don't like this approach.

If nobody was convicted of the crime, why isn't the case already open? Why aren't the investigators already trying to find out who did it?

If the case continued to be investigated, with an open mind, and more evidence turned up against the acquitted party, fine. However, to leap to re-open the inquiry only after reform of double jeopardy, suggests a continuing belief in the guilt of the acquitted defendant, without any additional evidence. Approaching a new inquiry on that basis is an open invitation to suspect-centred analysis of the material.

Rolfe.


I suspect that most of the nonsense being spouted off about "reopening" cases on the back of the new legislation and its seeming success in the Lawrence case is coming from either:

a) lazy and ill-informed journalists, who are usually writing for a pro-law-and-order audience who know no better either;

b) politicians, or those with a political angle to exploit, who also are hoping to appeal to constituencies whose zeal for "law and order" outweighs their knowledge of civil liberties and jurisprudence;

c) police officers, who may feel individually or collectively slighted or emasculated by acquittals in certain trials - particularly in high-profile trials where suspects were acquitted.

Fortunately, none of these groups of people gets to make the decision on whether cases are sent back to retrial after acquittal.


Bear in mind, also, that if a criminal trial results in acquittal, then if that verdict is safe (or was at the time it was reached), there are only two logical reasons of fact: either 1) the defendant was not the perpetrator, and the real perpetrator was not identified and tried; or 2) the defendant was the perpetrator, but there was not sufficient evidence of his/her guilt to result in a conviction. Both of these reasons are entirely just and fair reasons to acquit the defendant (although many people mistakenly believe that the second reason is unfair and unjust).

Sometimes, it's entirely rational and reasonable for the police (and prosecutors) to believe that they have identified the right culprit, even if they accept that there was not enough evidence to secure a conviction. When this is the case, we usually hear a police statement after an acquittal to the effect of "police are not seeking anyone else in relation to this crime". In the past, it would be pointless for the police to even attempt to find new evidence against an acquitted suspect, since there would never again be a possibility of using this evidence in a trial.

I suspect, for example, that there might be a number of (say) rape cases where the suspect was acquitted, but where minute quantities of semen evidence were left on the victim's body or clothing - quantities that might have been too small to accurately DNA-type in the past (or where the crime and trial predated DNA testing altogether), but which are now eminently matchable to a given individual with a very high degree of certainty. Before the changes to the legislation, this new information would only have been of use if the person identified by the DNA had not been tried and acquitted. But I'm guessing there may be a fairly large number of cases (especially given the high rate of acquittals in rape cases) where Mr A was charged with the rape of Ms B, without the benefit of high-probability DNA typing, and was acquitted. If the police subsequently find (perhaps years later, owing to new techniques) that Mr A's DNA was almost beyond doubt present on Ms B's clothing or body, then in the past Mr A would have been untouchable, having already been acquitted of the crime.

Would you (or anyone) suggest that it would be neither fair nor in the public interest for Mr A to be retried under this scenario, with a new jury able to consider the very robust new DNA evidence? I'm going to (not) go out on a limb, and suggest that such a retrial would be both just and in the public interest. I suspect that many rape and sex-related acquittals from the 1960s through to even the early-2000s might fall into such a category, and I expect such cases to form a large proportion of the cases referred back to the Court of Appeal.
 
As you know, I'm not against the guilty bastards being nailed, in the end. Far from it. What concernes me is the potential for vindictive misuse of this legislation, and I simply have to hope that doesn't happen.

I'm still surprised we haven't heard from any American members about their opinions on the matter.

Rolfe.
 
As you know, I'm not against the guilty bastards being nailed, in the end. Far from it. What concernes me is the potential for vindictive misuse of this legislation, and I simply have to hope that doesn't happen.


I agree totally. But I suppose my point is that there appears to be no reason for having preemptive concern about vindictive misuse, since the legislation seems designed to minimise the chance of this happening. I agree, however, that the situation will need careful monitoring, to ensure that it doesn't spawn a monster. I feel confident that there are enough vigilant politicians, human-rights-watchers and responsible, libertarian journalists who intend to conduct just such a monitoring watch (as well as rational, sceptical forum communities of course :)).



I'm still surprised we haven't heard from any American members about their opinions on the matter.


Me too. Regrettably, many US citizens seem to feel (in my view) that their laws are made in a vacuum and thus find it rather pointless to examine laws (and their consequences) in other countries. The Patriot Act might be a good example of this. However, there should clearly be enough rational US-natives on this forum to hold an interesting view on this issue. I suppose that one extra issue to bear in mind is whether issues such as this would be legislated and enforced at a State or Federal level in the US. Anyone?

ETA: I'm clearly having an issue over my over-use of the word "issue" :D
 
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Is there any process in either of the UK legal systems analogous to Quality Control?
ie, a check of the data after the event to see if the system came to the right conclusion? Or at least one that was logically plausible?
I can't help feeling if surgeons or airline pilots had the same success rate as lawyers, there would be some hard questions asked.
The difficulty would seem to be that "successful" is apt to be measured (by police or law firms) using criteria at serious variance from "correct".

Unlikely as it may seem, I share Rolfe's concerns about this issue, especially in the context of recent events in Scotland.
 

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