Tube Strike

[Jon_in_london]

Some of you may know that there is a tube strike going on in London today. Most of those on strike are drivers.

The DLR (Docklands Light Railway) is running as normal though, because its controlled by computers. No drivers.

My question is, why not replace all the tube drivers with a computerised control system. It works for the DLR?

Is there some problem with running a computerised train control system with a very high frequency of trains (90 seconds to 4 minutes)?

 

[Rolfe]

I'll take a wild guess that it might be more difficult to adapt a Victorian tube system to run on automatic than to build a modern system with that method of operation designed in from the outset.

Rolfe.

 

[Jon_in_london]

I'll take a wild guess that it might be more difficult to adapt a Victorian tube system to run on automatic than to build a modern system with that method of operation designed in from the outset.

Rolfe.

Actually only the sub-surface lines and the Northern line are Victorian. Most of the tube was built during the 1920s and 1930s.The Victoria line is 1960s and most of the Jubilee line is late 20th/early 21st century.

I dont see any reason why a victorian construct should not be convertible. A railway line is a railway line after all.

 

[geni]

Health and saftey means you have to have someone on the train. Plus if you tried to convert there is a fair chance the unions would strike.

 

[Pantastic]

DLR. Is. So. Slow.

They need to get a computer that can drive a train at high speed safely before it is worth it.

 

[richardm]

DLR. Is. So. Slow.

They need to get a computer that can drive a train at high speed safely before it is worth it.

But how hard can that be? It's not as though you need any complex steering algorithms*. I'd have thought the biggest difficulty would be coping with the mad commuters cramming on and off. How would the train be certain people weren't still hanging out of the doors? I presume the DLR doesn't have so many passengers.

I guess you could have a station master with a button to press to say "Go!"


*This reminds me of a letter I read in Viz a few years back, which went along the lines of:

Train drivers shouldn't have to strike for more pay, it's such a skilled job they should have it doubled. How they keep those long trains balanced on those thin rails is nothing more than a miracle.

Tube drivers deserve even more, because they have to do it in the dark.

Edited to add: It'll never happen, because as Geni says, as soon as there's a whiff of it on the air, the whole lot would strike instantly and catastrophically. And who can blame them. In truth, it's probably cheaper to pay continue to pay drivers than would be to automate it.

 

[DanishDynamite]

There are no technical reasons why the Tube couldn't be made driverless. There is apparently some contemplation going on at the LU at perhaps making it driverless in the future, but no current plans:

London News Network (LNN) has received a copy of a leaked internal London Underground document, which outlines potential areas for organisational change within London Underground.

...

"Consequently, any claims arising from this document, in particular that London Underground is actively planning to introduce driver-less trains, are unfounded and - at best - premature.

"At present there are no such plans. However, as the document suggests London Underground should continue to review new technologies and consider all future possibilities to improve the services we provide to our customers.

BTW, while googling on this topic I came across this site which probably captures one of the reasons why driver-less trains aren't currently on the menu.

 

[richardm]

"If London Underground introduce driverless trains then my members will strike immediately," Crow told a small group of journalists in a pub off the Holloway Road. "Then let's see what happens. I'd like to see these driverless trains run with no drivers. It can't be done. I'm not stupid. They'll be telling us we'll be getting horseless carriages next."

and indeed

London Underground has apologised for the partial services running on the Central Line and say they expect things to be back to normal as soon as the next derailment takes place and everything can grind to a juddering halt. Again.

Priceless

 

[Jon_in_london]

DLR. Is. So. Slow.

They need to get a computer that can drive a train at high speed safely before it is worth it.

I think the speed of the DLR is more to do with the flimsy bridges it runs on than the control system. It fairly pelts down the tunnel to Bank though!

Anyway- the Danes apparently already has such a system in operation: http://www.m.dk/en/safety

Oh, and the Victoria line, Northern and Central lines are almost automatic too. The 'driver' just closes the door and presses a start button:

http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/faq/lines/Victoria.asp

Ahhh.... £32,000 for closing doors and pressing a button. Those poor exploited little tube driv...ermm.... bellboys.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Anyway- the Danes apparently already has such a system in operation: http://www.m.dk/en/safety

Indeed. And these trains run at a respectable top speed of 80 km/h. Currently, the time between trains is about 2 - 2.5 minutes. When the project is completed, the time between trains is expected to be about 90 seconds.

 

[Jon_in_london]

But how hard can that be? It's not as though you need any complex steering algorithms*. I'd have thought the biggest difficulty would be coping with the mad commuters cramming on and off. How would the train be certain people weren't still hanging out of the doors? I presume the DLR doesn't have so many passengers.

I guess you could have a station master with a button to press to say "Go!"

Edited to add: It'll never happen, because as Geni says, as soon as there's a whiff of it on the air, the whole lot would strike instantly and catastrophically. And who can blame them. In truth, it's probably cheaper to pay continue to pay drivers than would be to automate it.

Firstly, a 24 hour tube strike costs London £200 million. Thats quite a bit of money. Replacing the bellboys would eliminate strikes and the ludicrous pay package that the bellboys earn. Thats saving a fair old whack of money and wastes less time in the long run.

On most trains these days, the bellboy has an electronic light thast tells him/her if all the doors are closed. No reason why this cant be done automatically or by a station assistant.

I dont think the DLR is any less crowded than the tube, although the DLR does sometimes have someone on the train to open and close the doors.