TSA scanners and Islam

[Smiledriver]

For those who don't want to read the whole article below the jist is that certain muslim religious leaders have issued a fatwa against the use of airport scanners as it violates their modesty (the muslims not the scanners.)

http://www.freep.com/article/201002...body-scanners-violate-Islamic-law-Muslims-say

Then I found this...

http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/travel_tips.htm

...it was refreshing and measured and practical. Looks like there are some grown ups among this religion after all. Not getting my hopes up though, just pleasently suprised.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I think there are legitimate complaints of privacy invasion in regards to the newer scanner technology. I am willing to sacrifice a reasonable amount of freedom and privacy for a reasonable amount of safety. The new scanner technology has not personally satisfied me on these levels.

The second link is promising though. I am pleased whenever I see more moderately expressed muslim thought.

 

[I Ratant]

Look on the bright side.
If all Muslims refuse to fly, the number of Muslim influenced terror events will drop to zero.
How many would that be?
All of them?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I am willing to sacrifice a reasonable amount of freedom and privacy for a reasonable amount of safety.

They who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

—Benjamin Franklin—​

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

They who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

—Benjamin Franklin—​

I would consider giving up essential liberty an unreasonable level. For instance, I don't consider the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater that is not on fire or about to be shot by my multitudes of minions to be an essential liberty. Hence I am willing to give up that reasonable amount for the reasonable safety it helps encourage.

 

[Ladewig]

They who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

—Benjamin Franklin—​

So you believe the right to not have technology used in airport screening is "essential liberty"?

 

[Third Eye Open]

So you believe the right to not have technology used in airport screening is "essential liberty"?

I have the right to not use airlines that treat me like a criminal. If I am for some reason forced by law to get on a plane, then I'll start complaining.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I have the right to not use airlines that treat me like a criminal. If I am for some reason forced by law to get on a plane, then I'll start complaining.

And if you're forced by economic or other circumstances to get on a plane? I still don't drive, but I feel the force of the pressure to drive every time I try to walk somewhere in a car-culture.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

I believe I have not been sold on this technology being reasonable. There is no such thing as guaranteed safety. I am wary on forcing the airlines to use this technology when it is questionable if it can even catch the type of chemical explosives that are a rare occurance when it otherwise appears that a strengthening of data collection and sharing could do so.

 

[Third Eye Open]

And if you're forced by economic or other circumstances to get on a plane? I still don't drive, but I feel the force of the pressure to drive every time I try to walk somewhere in a car-culture.

I take that in to account when I'm putting myself in any situation that would require me to get on a plane.
If I am offered a job that would require me to fly often, I would factor the fact that I would have to endure bad treatment on a regular basis into my assessment of whether the job pays enough.
I am also going to prefer an airline (regardless of price) that treats me like a decent human being, and pampers me like most customer service based companies tend to try to do.
Airline companies think they have free reign to do whatever the hell they want because people need them, I think most people have a breaking point where they will just quit flying.

 

[Earthborn]

Full body scanners that use X-rays to take naked pictures of people aren't the only ones, and may not even be the most common. There are also full body scanners that show a sort of doll with some blocks where there might be something suspicious, seen here. Schiphol airport near Amsterdam ordered a whole bunch of them , and I think they make perfect sense; Muslims aren't the only ones modest enough to prefer not to be seen naked by some operator in a back room.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

The scanners are a TSA measure, not a measure of the private airlines. Only a few of the airports currently run under private security operations. This is something that has always made me confused. Why do the private airline companies get the bad for poor government performance in this case? Normally people even complain about government service when it is performing exeedingly well. In this case I feel the government is underperforming.

 

[shadron]

I have the right to not use airlines that treat me like a criminal. If I am for some reason forced by law to get on a plane, then I'll start complaining.

The scanners are used by the TSA, a government agency, and they are used at a given airport for all passengers. I guess that leaves the right to use rail or bus transport, at least for a while.

 

[shadron]

The scanners are a TSA measure, not a measure of the private airlines. Only a few of the airports currently run under private security operations. This is something that has always made me confused. Why do the private airline companies get the bad for poor government performance in this case? Normally people even complain about government service when it is performing exeedingly well. In this case I feel the government is underperforming.

Mainly because they bobbled the ball when they had the responsibility for security; they treated it as a business cost which could be balanced against profit. Later on the airports took it over, and again it failed. AFAIK, no major airports, and possibly no minor ones, today use private companies for passenger security, except as an measure additional to the TSA.

What would you expect to be a reasonable level of performance within the TSA's purview?

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

What would you expect to be a reasonable level of performance within the TSA's purview?

To secure reasonable safety while achieving better customer service ratings than the IRS.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/05/15/irs-rated-better-for-customer-service-than-airlines/

We may talk euphemistically about how the IRS gives it to us where the sun doesn't shine but the TSA might actually give you a cavity search some day.

 

[Thunder]

They who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

—Benjamin Franklin—​

Ben Franklin never faced the prospect of suicide bombers on subways.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

Ben Franklin never faced the prospect of suicide bombers on subways.

True, he only had to deal face to face with a race war, the threat of having his home torn apart while overseas, the anger of being an outspoken abolitionist (to slavery), and execution for high treason against the crown.

High treason during this period would have been a grand spectacle:
http://www.umich.edu/~ece/student_projects/bonifield/treason2.html

1. That the offender be drawn to the gallows, and not be carried or walk: though usually (by connivance length ripened by humanity into law) a sledge or hurdle is allowed, to preserve the offender from the extreme torment of being dragged on the ground or pavement

2. That he be hanged by the neck and then cut down alive

3. That his entrails be taken out and burned, while he is yet alive

4. That his head be cut off

5. That his body be divided in four parts

6. That his head and quarters be at the king's disposal

Blackstone, Wm., Knight. Chase, George, ed. Chase's Blackstone Commentaries on the Laws of England in Four Books. New York: Baker, Voorhis & Co., 1936, p891.

So its not like he had any understanding of living under the threat of death.

 

[Thunder]

air travel is not a right.
subways are not a right.
buses are not a right.

if those who run these forms of mass-transit wanna search people for bombs, you either play along..or walk.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

if those who run these forms of mass-transit wanna search people for bombs, you either play along..or walk.

When the government runs or mandates something, it should be reasonable. We the people run these systems through the appointees of our elected representatives. If we are unhappy we can affect change, even if it is slow and tedious. I am not convinced by the proposals for the more invasive scanners as a primary screening device. I can accept the secondary screening application even knowing I may randomly be selected for such. It appears we disagree on this point and it remains to be seen where the final use will lie.

 

[shadron]

True, he only had to deal face to face with a race war, the threat of having his home torn apart while overseas, the anger of being an outspoken abolitionist (to slavery), and execution for high treason against the crown.

High treason during this period would have been a grand spectacle:
http://www.umich.edu/~ece/student_projects/bonifield/treason2.html
Blackstone, Wm., Knight. Chase, George, ed. Chase's Blackstone Commentaries on the Laws of England in Four Books. New York: Baker, Voorhis & Co., 1936, p891.

So its not like he had any understanding of living under the threat of death.

They only missed one small part of the ritual there:

2a. Removal of nads to be added to the bar-b-que.