Truthers and the FDNY

[Thunder]

I'm just going to address this because nearly all of the last few posts are trying to play this card and the rest of your post was simply nonsensical ramblings.

The testimonies of the firefighters are extensive and widely accessible. They have not been contested. The discussion is about these reports.

RedIbis- why do you believe that all FDNY and NYPD personnel are liars and cowardly charlatans?

 

[johnny karate]

We went over this already.

I know. I found it surprising you would want your nose rubbed in your stupid lie again.

But I appreciate your reminding us that Currid received word of the collapse from the OEM.

That never was in contention, and irrelevant to what we're discussing. You were trying to pretend Currid said that all of the FDNY received word of the collapse from the OEM. It turns out you were lying.

I'm still waiting for you to do the honorable thing and retract your "BS" accusation.

 

[DGM]

I've read the firefighter testimonies. That's why I asked you specifically for that one since I don't contest the fact that some FDNY did report a fully involved bldg. Some even said that every floor was involved. But since the NIST report, we know that's not accurate. Is he a liar? Not at all, that's why a range of reports must be considered.
But what you are not doing is admitting that no one called the WTC 7 fire, "among the largest the FDNY have (sic) ever dealt with".

This is exactly right (bold). The problem is what is your criteria for consideration. Most of the time investigators look for witnesses to bolster physical evidence. The "truthers" problem is they use it instead of physical evidence.

This surprises me you take this stand considering you seam to dismiss the NIST WTC 7 report because of lack of physical evidence. This seams like a contradiction or perhaps a confirmation bias. I don't see a consistency in your logic.

 

[funk de fino]

I've read the firefighter testimonies. That's why I asked you specifically for that one since I don't contest the fact that some FDNY did report a fully involved bldg. Some even said that every floor was involved. But since the NIST report, we know that's not accurate. Is he a liar? Not at all, that's why a range of reports must be considered.

But what you are not doing is admitting that no one called the WTC 7 fire, "among the largest the FDNY have (sic) ever dealt with".

Thats a mighty U turn there Red.

Since the NIST reports we know that explosive did not bring down the towers or WTC7 so any initial statements about explosions were incorrect then eh?

Do you agree with the WTC7 report about the extent of the fires?

Is Nigro correct?

 

[johnny karate]

RedIbis seems to make many 180 degree turns in his thinking. And they're all based on what best serves whatever argument he's making at the moment, coincidentally enough.

 

[WildCat]

Has RedIbis found a firefighter yet who thought there were bombs on 9/11 but changed his mind later after being told what to think?

 

[Disbelief]

Has RedIbis found a firefighter yet who thought there were bombs on 9/11 but changed his mind later after being told what to think?

I think he has been absent for a few days while he is out on the streets discussing his theories with the FDNY.





No, I could not say that with a straight face.

 

[Senenmut]

hey redibis-
here is a good oral history by Richard Zarillo. this concerns wtc 1 and 2.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110161.PDF

"A few minutes later, John came to me and said you
need to go find Chief Ganci and relay the following
message: that the buildings have been compromised, we
need to evacuate, they're going to collapse."

"I said the buildings are
going to collapse; we need to evac everybody out. With
a very confused look he said who told you that? I said
I was just with John at OEM. OEM says the buildings
are going to collapse; we need to get out."

"He escorted me over to Chief Ganci. He said,
hey, Pete, we got a message that the buildings are
going to collapse. His reply was who the **** told you
that? Then Steve brought me in and with Chief Ganci,
Commissioner Feehan, Steve, I believe Chief Turi was
initially there, I said, listen, I was just at OEM.
The message I was given was that the buildings are
going to collapse; we need to get our people out. At
that moment, this thunderous, rolling roar came down
and that's when the building came down, the first tower
came down."

 

[johnny karate]

hey redibis-
here is a good oral history by Richard Zarillo. this concerns wtc 1 and 2.

Paying attention is clearly not your strong suit.

 

[Senenmut]

this is a continuation from the above post b/c they (people at the oem) said wtc 1 and 2 will collapse, now for wtc 7.

this is where they set up the oem in the lobby of wtc 7. from same oral history.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110161.PDF

Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes
later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said
we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane
inbound. That was the only thing I really heard
because I said, Abdo, we've got to go, and we made it
down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up
with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building. He
said that there was no third plane but we needed to
re-establish OEM right there so we can coordinate what
was going on."

so this goes into my post a page back where this "engineer" in the lobby (oem command) was right on the money in predicting wtc 7 collapse.

this engineer seems to be "right on the money" as fire chief hayden says. could this be the source of the firefighters believing that wtc 7 will fall?

Deputy Chief Hayden - start at 19:35
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62020229593250

Hayden: "Well we had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor and see if there was any movement of the building. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building, and we had a discussion with one particular engineer and we asked him if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse and, if so, how soon. And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money that he said in its current state you have about five hours."

WHO THE HELL IS THIS ENGINEER!!!

 

[johnny karate]

this is a continuation from the above post b/c they (people at the oem) said wtc 1 and 2 will collapse, now for wtc 7.

this is where they set up the oem in the lobby of wtc 7. from same oral history.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110161.PDF

Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes
later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said
we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane
inbound. That was the only thing I really heard
because I said, Abdo, we've got to go, and we made it
down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up
with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building. He
said that there was no third plane but we needed to
re-establish OEM right there so we can coordinate what
was going on."

so this goes into my post a page back where this "engineer" in the lobby (oem command) was right on the money in predicting wtc 7 collapse.

this engineer seems to be "right on the money" as fire chief hayden says. could this be the source of the firefighters believing that wtc 7 will fall?

Deputy Chief Hayden - start at 19:35
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62020229593250

Hayden: "Well we had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor and see if there was any movement of the building. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building, and we had a discussion with one particular engineer and we asked him if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse and, if so, how soon. And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money that he said in its current state you have about five hours."

WHO THE HELL IS THIS ENGINEER!!!

How is any of this relevant to... well, anything? What in particular do you find suspicious about an expert on building construction being consulted about the stability of a damaged building?

 

[funk de fino]

this is a continuation from the above post b/c they (people at the oem) said wtc 1 and 2 will collapse, now for wtc 7.

this is where they set up the oem in the lobby of wtc 7. from same oral history.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110161.PDF

Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes
later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said
we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane
inbound. That was the only thing I really heard
because I said, Abdo, we've got to go, and we made it
down to the lobby of the building, street level, met up
with Chief Peruggia in the lobby of the building. He
said that there was no third plane but we needed to
re-establish OEM right there so we can coordinate what
was going on."

so this goes into my post a page back where this "engineer" in the lobby (oem command) was right on the money in predicting wtc 7 collapse.

this engineer seems to be "right on the money" as fire chief hayden says. could this be the source of the firefighters believing that wtc 7 will fall?

Deputy Chief Hayden - start at 19:35
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...62020229593250

Hayden: "Well we had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor and see if there was any movement of the building. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building, and we had a discussion with one particular engineer and we asked him if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse and, if so, how soon. And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money that he said in its current state you have about five hours."

WHO THE HELL IS THIS ENGINEER!!!

First part is irrelevant.

Second part is the FDNY looking at expert advice saying it will collapse.

Whats the problem?

 

[johnny karate]

Also, members of the FDNY who spoke with this mysterious engineer are mentioned by name. Senenmut, have you made any effort to contact any of them to find out this person's identity, or does your burning curiosity only extend far enough for you to post here, and occasionally hit the caps lock key?

 

[Senenmut]

why is the first part irrelevant??

and how do u know he was an expert. got a name. he could have just said he was an engineer. your not much of a skepitc are u?? has anyone interviewed him and found out why he thought wtc 7 was going to collapse in 5 hrs or why the oem said wtc 1 and 2 were going to collapse?

 

[Senenmut]

Also, members of the FDNY who spoke with this mysterious engineer are mentioned by name. Senenmut, have you made any effort to contact any of them to find out this person's identity, or does your burning curiosity only extend far enough for you to post here, and occasionally hit the caps lock key?

posting here allows many others to read. and maybe someone does know. that is the point. to learn from everyone.... skepics and truthers.
but if noone knows, ill try and find a channel to try and find out.

 

[funk de fino]

why is the first part irrelevant??

and how do u know he was an expert. got a name. he could have just said he was an engineer. your not much of a skepitc are u?? has anyone interviewed him and found out why he thought wtc 7 was going to collapse in 5 hrs or why the oem said wtc 1 and 2 were going to collapse?

Because it is a warning about a third plane. What has this to do with collapse warnings?

try Mike Catalano

 

[johnny karate]

why is the first part irrelevant??

and how do u know he was an expert. got a name. he could have just said he was an engineer. your not much of a skepitc are u?? has anyone interviewed him and found out why he thought wtc 7 was going to collapse in 5 hrs or why the oem said wtc 1 and 2
were going to collapse?

You said this person was an engineer. Repeatedly. And you are alone in your curiosity as to who this person is, and now whether or not this person is even an engineer.

As far as skepticism goes, the only thing that makes me skeptical in this scenario is the idea that someone could stroll into the emergency command center pretending to be an engineer and fool absolutely everyone there. And then there's the question as to why someone would do this, and how this fits into the possibility of an inside job. Good luck explaining that without making the FDNY look suspect, or like complete idiots.

 

[Senenmut]

Because it is a warning about a third plane. What has this to do with collapse warnings?

try Mike Catalano

not mike. looks like he left after the first collapse. hayden states the building was already on fire when the "engineer" said 5 hrs and was "right on the money."

http://www.buildings.com/articles/detail.aspx?ContentID=925

"Amidst the choking smoke, they managed a terrifying escape. Behind the facility, both crews from Salomon Smith Barney and Silverstein Properties embraced and rejoiced when they discovered they had all made it out alive. Then the second tower fell. “We all ran as fast as we could,’’ says Catalano. Adds Gregori, “I ran faster than I could.” Due to falling debris from the North Tower, 7 WTC caught fire and collapsed later that day."

the secret service in the oem brought up the warning about the 3rd plane. where did they get the info? i dont know.

 

[Senenmut]

You said this person was an engineer. Repeatedly. And you are alone in your curiosity as to who this person is, and now whether or not this person is even an engineer.

As far as skepticism goes, the only thing that makes me skeptical in this scenario is the idea that someone could stroll into the emergency command center pretending to be an engineer and fool absolutely everyone there. And then there's the question as to why someone would do this, and how this fits into the possibility of an inside job. Good luck explaining that without making the FDNY look suspect, or like complete idiots.

found something in another oral history

"I was in a
discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a
representative from the Department of Buildings, but
I'm not sure. Some engineer type person, and several
of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was
brought to my attention, it was believed that the
structural damage that was suffered to the towers was
quite significant and they were very confident that the
building's stability was compromised and they felt that
the north tower was in danger of a near imminent
collapse.

"Now you know, again, this
is not a scene where the thought of both buildings
collapsing ever entered into my mind.
I was there in 1993, 14 minutes after the
bomb went off. I operated some 16 hours at the
building and with all the post-incident critiques and
debriefings with various agencies. We were always told
by everyone, the experts, that these buildings could
withstand direct hits from airplanes. That's the way
they were designed. They went through all of this
architectural stuff, way beyond the scope of my
knowledge.
It was hit by an airplane. That's okay.
It's made to be hit by an airplane. I mean I think
everyone may have believed that. We were all told
years ago it was made to be hit by an airplane."

maybe this is why the firefighters were like what the fu.. do u mean the building will collapse.

 

[Senenmut]

from oral history of J. PERUGGIA


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110160.PDF