Truthers and anti-Semitism

[ref]

The ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Isreal was behind it.

I have to disagree again. A couple of years ago I researched the origins of various truther claims, and the people behind them.

Who were among the first more influential "truthers"?

Alex Jones, of course. He never blames Israel.

Peter Meyer, two days after the attacks, wrote about "The World Trade Center Bombing". Although he otherwise promotes anti-semitic content, he did not blame Israel, but US.

The Americans obligingly provide the appropriate training where needed. (Of course the Arabs do not know that this is really an American operation.) Careful planning and coordination are also needed, not the haphazard planning which Arab militants have exhibited before, such as in the previous botched attack against the WTC. Americans provide the necessary expertise in this area, and tell the Arabs exactly what to do, when and how. Unknown to the latter, the former have also placed high explosives by the structural supports of the WTC towers, since they know that the impacts of the planes will not be enough to bring down the towers, and their plan is complete destruction of both towers.

Jared Israel, four days after the attacks, came up with the idea about the NORAD stand-down: "Criminal Negligence or Treason?". Jared strongly opposes any anti-semitic theories, and is a strong supported of Israel, so no blaming of Israel here either.


Carol A. Valentine started a lot of theories with her article "Operation 911: No Suicide Pilots", and yes she takes jabs at Israel and is anti-semitic.


But then, only a month after the attacks appeared the most influental WTC demolition article, which has influenced numerous high profile truthers, "Muslims Suspend the Laws of Physics" by Jim McMichael. Not a word about Israel.


Let move on to March, 2002. The most popular 9/11 Truth book ever is released: "9/11: The Big Lie" by Thierry Meyssan. A huge success. Tops the french sales charts, translated to 28 languages. Starts numerous new theories, like the claims that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Meyssan's success influences the likes of Hufschmid and others. And who does Meyssan blame? US Government, not Israel.

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.

So I really find it difficult to agree with the claim, that the ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Israel was behind it. Some people believed that, and many people later adopted that mindset, but it was not a dominant view among these early influental TM characters in the very beginning.

Interesting discussion by the way, rare in here these days.

 

[Scott Sommers]

I have to disagree again. A couple of years ago I researched the origins of various truther claims, and the people behind them.

Who were among the first more influential "truthers"?

Alex Jones, of course. He never blames Israel.

Peter Meyer, two days after the attacks, wrote about "The World Trade Center Bombing". Although he otherwise promotes anti-semitic content, he did not blame Israel, but US.




Jared Israel, four days after the attacks, came up with the idea about the NORAD stand-down: "Criminal Negligence or Treason?". Jared strongly opposes any anti-semitic theories, and is a strong supported of Israel, so no blaming of Israel here either.


Carol A. Valentine started a lot of theories with her article "Operation 911: No Suicide Pilots", and yes she takes jabs at Israel and is anti-semitic.


But then, only a month after the attacks appeared the most influental WTC demolition article, which has influenced numerous high profile truthers, "Muslims Suspend the Laws of Physics" by Jim McMichael. Not a word about Israel.


Let move on to March, 2002. The most popular 9/11 Truth book ever is released: "9/11: The Big Lie" by Thierry Meyssan. A huge success. Tops the french sales charts, translated to 28 languages. Starts numerous new theories, like the claims that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Meyssan's success influences the likes of Hufschmid and others. And who does Meyssan blame? US Government, not Israel.

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.

So I really find it difficult to agree with the claim, that the ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Israel was behind it. Some people believed that, and many people later adopted that mindset, but it was not a dominant view among these early influental TM characters in the very beginning.

Interesting discussion by the way, rare in here these days.

Thank you for putting in the work. I guess I'm wrong and have been operating under false assumptions. My belief has always been the initial voices of conspiracy following 911 were from the 'blame the Isrealis' crowd. I think part of my confusion comes from joining in the discourse so late in its development and subsequently missing first-hand experience with earlier debates. I appreciate you taking the time so I that no longer make that mistake.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Did he post anything about "crypto jews"?

Yes he did. He said Bush was a jew. Did you miss that part?

 

[ref]

Thank you for putting in the work. I guess I'm wrong and have been operating under false assumptions. My belief has always been the initial voices of conspiracy following 911 were from the 'blame the Isrealis' crowd. I think part of my confusion comes from joining in the discourse so late in its development and subsequently missing first-hand experience with earlier debates. I appreciate you taking the time so I that no longer make that mistake.

No problem and thanks yourself, rational people like you have the ability to learn, and re-evaluate their previous assumptions. Something the truthers are very rarely capable of.

 

[MikeW]

My belief has always been the initial voices of conspiracy following 911 were from the 'blame the Isrealis' crowd.

There are plenty of antisemitic truthers around, but as ref said, they're just one faction, not the majority. And if you follow them online you'll see they spend much of their time attacking other truthers for not playing up The Israeli Connections, exactly because most people don't share their views.

 

[RedIbis]

Yes he did. He said Bush was a jew. Did you miss that part?

He's got you there Deep. I did say that and I also said,

"My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism."

Which makes just as much sense.

 

[Scott Sommers]

There are plenty of antisemitic truthers around, but as ref said, they're just one faction, not the majority. And if you follow them online you'll see they spend much of their time attacking other truthers for not playing up The Israeli Connections, exactly because most people don't share their views.

This is all good to know and I understand how my initial suggestion was wrong. My point was that the North American scene is only part of the picture and it's pretty much dried up as a source of new recruits and expanded money. It's frequently commented that Gage is moving off shore looking for an audience in Europe and Australia. My mistaken belief that the origins of 911 Truth was in an Israeli Connection lead me to believe it had originally been designed for a similar purpose and had only to appeal to its origins to attract those Muslims who might already be inclined that way.

I understand now that in many ways, 911 Truth has had to be remade to appeal to this audience. This is probably the reason why its American proponents are the nuttier of the Truthers.

 

[CHF]

I think this thread has drifted fairly off-course from the OP and into the issue of just how much anti-Semitism is found in the Truth Movement. Some say a little, some say a lot.

I accept that most truthers are NOT anti-Semites but at the same time also accept the obvious fact that anti-Semites have played a role in the TM that is vastly disproportionate to their numbers (an embarrassing reality that truthers prefer to sidestep rather than acknowledge).

The question is: why is this? Why does the TM find itself overlapping on so many fronts with the ideas of vile people like Holocaust Deniers?

IMO, it's not a matter of truthers necessarily being anti-Semites so much as it is a matter of logical kinship - a shared paranoid mentality where a tiny elite somehow infiltrate and control the global levers of power in media, entertainment, government, law-enforcement, business, finance, education, and engineering.

If truthers are going to believe in such a world-wide conspiracy (as they apparently do) then why on earth wouldn't they find themselves alongside the most popular such conspiracy theory in history?

I mean given what the truthers' ridiculous world-wide 9/11 conspiracy calls for, what group fit the bill better than the Jewish people?

So on what grounds can truthers purge the anti-Semites from their ranks? Their logic is just as stupid.

 

[Par]

Making groundless nonsense accusations Silvertien seems to me like anti-Semitism.

I've criticized [Silvertien] many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani...

I also said, "My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani...

No. Making groundless nonsense accusations is not criticism.

I also said, "My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism." Which makes just as much sense.

I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?

For the same reason caricaturing a white man as an ape wouldn’t be racist, but doing the same to a black man probably would, I imagine.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He's got you there Deep. I did say that and I also said,

"My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism."

Which makes just as much sense.

To truthers it does.

Why don't we get your fellow travellers Magz, Kageki and 9-11 Investigator in here (if we can pull him away from his holocaust denial goat rodeo in the history section) and ask them if Bush, Cheney, Rice and Guiliani are all jews?

 

[tfk]

I've found the extraordinarily high percentage of crypto-jew-haters that I've encountered amongst the truthers to be astonishing. And depressing.

They seem to be able to keep it out of the conversation for awhile. But eventually, it slips out.

I've been posting for awhile on the same forum that (unfortunately) bequeathed us bill smith. Almost every one of the dozen or so posters there have expressed anti-jew vitriol when they get excited. "Anti-Zionist" when they remember their lines, of course.

All the while, protesting that they aren't "anti-semitic".

"But the filthy jews bring it on themselves, of course." Or some such trash.

I put out a constant effort to not lump them all together. But the correlation coefficient seems to me to be in the 80th percentile or above.

Whenever I run across an anti-truther who starts ranting about "rag-heads all being terrorists", I've constantly objected. I strongly suspect that most of the posters here have done the same.

I agree with some of the others, that there is not enough effort on the part of the "thoughtful" truthers (assuming that a few do exist) to isolate themselves from the racists.


Tom

 

[tfk]

Red,

I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?

It depends on the basis of your criticism.

If it is criticism of these individuals for things that they've done, that's one thing.

If it attributes their motivation & the things that they've done to their "Jew, Italian or Caucasian heritage", then that's a smear of a different color.

In fact, if you were to propose a "giant male, Caucasian conspiracy to control our society", you'd have a lot more evidence. And you'd be right, to a certain degree. A degree that is, thankfully, plummeting.

Although this "male, Caucasian conspiracy" bore no resemblance to the conspiracy that CTers envision. It was simply an ugly "conspiracy by exclusion", rather than the hierarchical, organized Illuminati, PNAC, NWO, Zionist, [blah, blah] nonsense.

Now, once the present generation has fulfilled its genetic obligations by having the common decency to die, I believe that it'll take a lot (not all) of the last remains of racism with it.

[One of the bases of my optimism for the future.]

Tom

 

[johnny karate]

He's got you there Deep. I did say that and I also said,

"My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism."

Which makes just as much sense.

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where you suddenly decided to be internally consistent in your statements? You refuse to lay out exactly what you believe happened on 9/11, and constantly play verbal shell games, so I don't see where "making sense" out your posts comes into play.

I don't personally think you're an anti-Semite, but you definitely espouse contradictory ideas, so someone thinking you might actually be anti-Semitic is not too far beyond the pale. If only you were to clarify your overall position, and engage in discussion honestly, it would clear up these misperceptions. But you refuse to do that, so I guess you'll just have to sleep in the bed you've made.

More to the point, your flat-out denial that anti-Semitism has a place within the Truth Movement casts you in an even more suspect light, and cuts right to the heart of the argument CHF is making in this thread.

 

[WildCat]

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.

Well I never said that they blamed Israel, just that the truth movement was founded by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers, and it certainly appears to be the case.

Early on, their knee-jerk reaction was to side with the Arabs in fighting the Zionists. Later on some split off to blame the Mossad.

 

[Eyeron]

Actually for me this is the first time I've heard that the 911 cult is founded by Anti-semites. In all the years I've seen discussion about 911 conspiracies the only anti-semitism I've seen is when people go on about the dancing Jews means it was a Jewish conspiracy to destroy America crap.

 

[WildCat]

Actually for me this is the first time I've heard that the 911 cult is founded by Anti-semites. In all the years I've seen discussion about 911 conspiracies the only anti-semitism I've seen is when people go on about the dancing Jews means it was a Jewish conspiracy to destroy America crap.

We have a guy here (A-Train) who thinks Mossad agents parachuted out of the airplanes (from the wheel wells no less!) right before they crashed into the towers.

 

[ref]

Well I never said that they blamed Israel, just that the truth movement was founded by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers, and it certainly appears to be the case.

Just to be more precise, who in your opinion were the people who founded the truth movement, can you name these people? Just to know we are talking about the same people here.

 

[ref]

I accept that most truthers are NOT anti-Semites but at the same time also accept the obvious fact that anti-Semites have played a role in the TM that is vastly disproportionate to their numbers (an embarrassing reality that truthers prefer to sidestep rather than acknowledge).

I agree, that the likes of Carol Valentine, Christopher Bollyn and Eric Hufschmid have had a disproportionate role in the TM. Truthers could at least admit, that many theories that they are still repeating originated from these people, and that they don't accept their anti-semitism. Us debunkers can also admit, that even if it wasn't for any of these anti-semites in the TM, we would still have a TM that would claim equally absurd things.

The question is: why is this? Why does the TM find itself overlapping on so many fronts with the ideas of vile people like Holocaust Deniers?

IMO, it's not a matter of truthers necessarily being anti-Semites so much as it is a matter of logical kinship - a shared paranoid mentality where a tiny elite somehow infiltrate and control the global levers of power in media, entertainment, government, law-enforcement, business, finance, education, and engineering.

It's the flawed logic, weak critical thinking and gullibility. They share the tendency to fall for exciting, different, non-mainstream, shady theories. They share the ability to see the evidence in a certain light, that somehow supports their views. And as a consequence they share the lack of trust to officials, politicians, and corporate media.

If truthers are going to believe in such a world-wide conspiracy (as they apparently do) then why on earth wouldn't they find themselves alongside the most popular such conspiracy theory in history?

I mean given what the truthers' ridiculous world-wide 9/11 conspiracy calls for, what group fit the bill better than the Jewish people?

There are many in TM who blame the Jews. There are more who don't. There were many Holocaust deniers who invented TM theories and played a role in the early TM, but there were also many who aren't Holocaust deniers and who played a huge role. This kind of event was a like magnet for wacky theorists and naturally also for Holocaust deniers, it was just another opportunity for them to blame the Jews. So naturally we see a disproportionate amount of Holocaust deniers in the movement. It would be more strange if we didn't.

So on what grounds can truthers purge the anti-Semites from their ranks? Their logic is just as stupid.

What the truthers could do, is to admit that Holocaust deniers played a certain role in the early TM, and still exist as a faction. They should admit, that this and this theory originates from this and this Holocaust denying person. Then they should deny any sympathy towards the person, and separately evaluate the theories that originate from these people. If they deny the sympathy, but accept the theories, fine. Then we have another person with flawed logic and weak critical thinking. But I wouldn't pull the anti-semitism card after that. We should deal with the people as people, and theories as theories. Of course, if a theory originates from a known Holocaust denier, it's a pretty safe bet that the theory is flawed.

 

[Eyeron]

The problem is they'll never be able to admit it. No antisemite can ever admit to antisemitism. They'll automatically lose any credibility they have and will only get e little support for their theories.

 

[WildCat]

Just to be more precise, who in your opinion were the people who founded the truth movement, can you name these people? Just to know we are talking about the same people here.

Wasn't it you who provided a timeline of the earliest 9/11 conspiracy theories? Just about all of them by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers like Carol Valentine?