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Trump's Tariffs

Fudbucker said:
I want to play the other side. Show me where I'm wrong:

1. The status quo of massive trade-deficits with China is untenable in the long-term.

2. Outsourcing our manufacturing sector to a country with a dubious human rights record was morally indefensible.

3. China's theft (or lax attitude regarding theft) of intellectual property costs billions and cannot be tolerated.
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You can keep it on for years if you continue to print money.
 
Fudbucker said:
1. The status quo of massive trade-deficits with China is untenable in the long-term.
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True - and the same also applies to trade surpluses (so we better not have any...).

2. Outsourcing our manufacturing sector to a country with a dubious human rights record was morally indefensible.
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Human Rights Watch: World Report 2017
The United States has a vibrant civil society and strong constitutional protections for many civil and political rights. Yet many US laws and practices, particularly in the areas of criminal and juvenile justice, immigration, and national security, violate internationally recognized human rights.
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3. China's theft (or lax attitude regarding theft) of intellectual property costs billions and cannot be tolerated.
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IP theft is rampant in the US, and the population at large has a lax attitude towards it.

So China could use exactly the same arguments against us. I hope they do
 
So, I've skimmed through this thread, does anyone actually think the tariffs are a good idea?
 
Roger Ramjets said:
True - and the same also applies to trade surpluses (so we better not have any...).
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The argument isn't that we should take advantage, but that the playing field should be somewhat level. Of course, there's no perfect equalibrium, but the huge deficits we've been running up don't seem healthy in the long-term.


Human Rights Watch: World Report 2017
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If your argument is to create a moral equivalence between the working conditions in a given Chinese factory and those in an American one, you're not going to be very convincing. We have problems, but we also have much much tougher labor laws than China. I know where I'd rather live and work.


IP theft is rampant in the US, and the population at large has a lax attitude towards it.
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Source?

So China could use exactly the same arguments against us. I hope they do
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I doubt it. CNN is hardly a conservative outlet. Even they have taken China to task for their lax attitude regarding intellectual property theft.
 
Is everyone here aware that the deficit in foreign trade of goods is in a great part offset by the surplus in foreign trade of services? Also, is everyone aware that the rest is offset by the flux of capitals that willingly are absorbed by the Usaian vacuum cleaner?

A "success" in these adventures involving tariffs will result in an increasingly stronger dollar (remember that the Federal Reserve rate is going up slowly to prevent bubbles and it will wind up around 3% by the end of 2019). Are you prepared for a recession à la japonaise ?
 
Also, there is great advantage in keeping it lucrative for foreign countries to produce lower-tech products and services and stay on the cutting edge yourself. Paying with a trade deficit might be worth it in the medium term, especially if technologies like 3-D printing are poised to bring significant manufacturing capabilities back.
And, of course, there is no better developmental aid than a net deficit with a country in order to create a market for your goods.
 
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Belz... said:
Creating jobs is one thing, but do you want to pay double the current price for your clothes?
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If the alternative is the clothes are created in places where workers are exploited, I'd rather pay more and do with less clothes.
 
Belz... said:
In principle, yes. But the population at large won't go for that. That's one of the reasons climate change denial is a thing.
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The population at large doesn't believe climate change denial is real. But they're also not willing to make the kinds of sacrifices it would take to really mitigate it.

But I was giving you my personal opinion that it's not moral to outsource manufacturing to a country with human rights abuses.
 
Gaetan said:
Trump should build a wall all around US to prevent goods to come to US then people will have to work to produce these things and it will create jobs.
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Belz... said:
Creating jobs is one thing, but do you want to pay double the current price for your clothes?
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Gaetan doesn't believe in money. You'll just get what you need, or exchange for a chicken or something...
 
ahhell said:
So, I've skimmed through this thread, does anyone actually think the tariffs are a good idea?
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I think it's no more than dinosaur Trump's ignorant views that one can simply return to the days where globalization was minimal and if there was much of it, it was because Western world corporations were pillaging natural resources from third world countries. Add to that Trump's apparent over-simplistic view of economics and his bull-in-the-china-shop actions and you have a short term economic disaster for the US until we get Trump out of office.
 
Economy is a system. A dynamic one.

It's appalling to see wrong statements like Gaetan's in the post above. They are to economy what monopoles are to magnetism.

In the end, Trump's policies are more likely to destroy employment in blue states (providers of services which will become more expensive overseas, and manufacturers of goods that can get additional tariffs as a mean of retaliation) to create a lesser number of jobs in red states (in what an infant regards as "industry par excellence": steel, coal, plywood manufacturers, truck/lorry assemblers, etc. you know, hammers clanking and monkey wrenches/spanners in use; a very useful concept now that we are passed the first sixth of the twenty-first century)

Before the expected "someones" cry, the blue/red distinction is because almost invariably blue districts account for the lions share of production, employment and technology, while red districts are mostly poor...er.
 
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Trebuchet said:
I don't think much clothing is made in China these days anyhow -- labor cost is too high.
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Are you sure?

There has been a lot of news and documentaries about sweatshops in China from I-phones to Barbie dolls to blue jeans.


BBC 2002: Inside China's sweatshops

NYT 2008: In Chinese Factories, Lost Fingers and Low Pay

Salon 2013: Sweatshops still make your clothes
A few fashionable companies have branded themselves as socially conscious. On its web site, the popular shoe company TOMS claims: “We’ve engaged respected third parties to review and verify our product manufacturers within our supply chain on a facility-by-facility basis to identify potential risks” and “our factories in Argentina, Ethiopia and China are all third party audited to ensure they employ no child labor, and pay fair wages.” (The identity of these inspectors is not clear on the web site and attempts to reach the company by phone and email proved unsuccessful.)
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China has a growing middle class in urban areas but they still have a very large rural population that migrates to the cities to work in sweatshops as they seek to leave farming.
 
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ahhell said:
So, I've skimmed through this thread, does anyone actually think the tariffs are a good idea?
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Tariffs did protect local jobs in the olden days. For example, they permitted a thriving electronics industry in Australia from the 1930s to 1970s (though Australian products were expensive).

Unfortunately, reimposing tariffs won't bring those jobs back. The world has evolved too much since then and global corporations have become too powerful.
 
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