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Trump's Second Term

Carole Cadwalladr - call it what it is, it's a coup.

That image with the size comparison of the Musk coup and the frisbee story was infuriating. The media can F right off.
 
Marco Rubio hypes "pretty unique, potentially historic economic partnerships" with Putin

America is the enemy now.
Do you want to fight this war to the last Ukrainian, or do you want the war to end soon?

If you want it to end soon, then there are in principle three ways to do that. 1) Ukrainian defeat, 2) Russian defeat, and 3) a negotiated settlement. 1) is undesirable and unlikely given western aid. 2) is impossible to achieve, because it would require direct involvement of western militaries, and we don't want to do that for rather understandable reasons. So we're left with 3) a negotiated settlement.

And to get a negotiated settlement from Russia, you need to offer them something. What they really want is a Ukraine that has to bend to their will, like Belarus does. The specific amount of territory they hold isn't important, the territory is merely a tool to exert control over Ukraine. What Ukraine wants is security guarantees so that they don't have to bend to Moscow's will. NATO membership would do that, but the rules of membership basically already give Moscow a veto over that. And any other security guarantee is going to be directly counter to what Moscow wants.

Realistically, the only way to end this war soon is to offer Russia something else, something that would be valuable enough for them to give up their influence over Ukraine. And since we can't offer them the Baltic states in exchange, that something else is going to have to be money, in some form or other. That's all we can offer Russia, really.

So basically the options are we offer Russia money in some form (and trade is a pretty good form, since it doesn't come out of our budget), or just keep fighting. But Ukraine has already lost a lot of people. And they will keep losing people as long as this war continues. Ukrainian is already facing a demographic implosion, the longer this war drags on, the worse that implosion will get. The long-term survival of the country depends not only on its future international relations, but just having enough people to make a nation. It's easy to want to stick it to Russia when we aren't the ones dying to do it, but as long as we aren't, this war won't end in what looks like a victory for Ukraine. That's the harsh reality of the situation, and it does no one any favors to pretend otherwise. Now, details matter, and the details haven't been determined. So maybe whatever deal we end up with won't be good, or won't work, or won't be agreed to by both sides. But the fact that we're trying to reach a deal isn't a bad thing in and of itself. And that includes the fact that part of the deal is inevitably going to look like a reward to Russia. Because it has to, in order to get them to give up on keeping Ukraine under their thumb.
 
I don't want Russia to be rewarded for it's aggression.

When did Ukraine become the enemy?

I want Ukraine to have it's borders restored.

I want the USA to be a reliable ally and stand up to Russian aggression.

Why are you so eager to surrender to Russia and do what Putin tells you?

Pack of Quisling cowards eager to suck at Putin's dick and say thank you
 
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Do you want to fight this war to the last Ukrainian, or do you want the war to end soon?

If you want it to end soon, then there are in principle three ways to do that. 1) Ukrainian defeat, 2) Russian defeat, and 3) a negotiated settlement. 1) is undesirable and unlikely given western aid. 2) is impossible to achieve, because it would require direct involvement of western militaries, and we don't want to do that for rather understandable reasons. So we're left with 3) a negotiated settlement.

And to get a negotiated settlement from Russia, you need to offer them something. What they really want is a Ukraine that has to bend to their will, like Belarus does. The specific amount of territory they hold isn't important, the territory is merely a tool to exert control over Ukraine. What Ukraine wants is security guarantees so that they don't have to bend to Moscow's will. NATO membership would do that, but the rules of membership basically already give Moscow a veto over that. And any other security guarantee is going to be directly counter to what Moscow wants.

Realistically, the only way to end this war soon is to offer Russia something else, something that would be valuable enough for them to give up their influence over Ukraine. And since we can't offer them the Baltic states in exchange, that something else is going to have to be money, in some form or other. That's all we can offer Russia, really.

So basically the options are we offer Russia money in some form (and trade is a pretty good form, since it doesn't come out of our budget), or just keep fighting. But Ukraine has already lost a lot of people. And they will keep losing people as long as this war continues. Ukrainian is already facing a demographic implosion, the longer this war drags on, the worse that implosion will get. The long-term survival of the country depends not only on its future international relations, but just having enough people to make a nation. It's easy to want to stick it to Russia when we aren't the ones dying to do it, but as long as we aren't, this war won't end in what looks like a victory for Ukraine. That's the harsh reality of the situation, and it does no one any favors to pretend otherwise. Now, details matter, and the details haven't been determined. So maybe whatever deal we end up with won't be good, or won't work, or won't be agreed to by both sides. But the fact that we're trying to reach a deal isn't a bad thing in and of itself. And that includes the fact that part of the deal is inevitably going to look like a reward to Russia. Because it has to, in order to get them to give up on keeping Ukraine under their thumb.
Okay then, suppose there's a "deal" with Russia, and it gets its "reward", and it stops attempting to conquer all of Ukraine tomorrow.

What about the next day? What stops Russia from resuming its conquest? You going to bribe it again to stop?

What stops Russia from attempting to conquer another neighbor? You going to bribe it again to stop? And the next? And the next? And the next?

Because surely you're not stupid enough to think Russian ambitions end with half of Ukraine, or all of Ukraine.
 
Donald's Napoleonic quip about “he who saves his country doesn’t violate any laws” actually derives from one of Cicero's Catilinarian orations and goes back to the year of Cicero's Consulship and his exposure and exile of Catlina. He procured a 'senatus consultum ultimum' a permission to legitimise the use of force against citizens of Rome.

Do we think Donald knows this? maybe he has read Cicero? or one of Mary Beard's books?

Or someone just fed him the line

Somebody wrote the twit for him and he knew nothing about it.
 
Worth noting that the "demographic implosion" in Ukraine is less severe than in Russia. That big dip in population in their early 20s is not due to the invasion, it was already there. Until last year the conscription age in Ukraine was as high as 27 (despite repeated pressure from the US to reduce it) precisely to avoid creating a demographic timebomb.
 
I don't want Russia to be rewarded for it's aggression.
I don't want them to either. But that doesn't answer the question of what to do, given that we don't live in an ideal world. Is your aim to punish Russia, or to stop more Ukrainians from dying? Which is more important to you?
When did Ukraine become the enemy?
When did Ukrainian deaths stop meaning anything to you?
I want Ukraine to have it's borders restored.
I would like that too. But there's no road map to make that happen. The war has been going on for three years now. How long do you think it's going to take for them to retake the territory they lost? Three more years? Ten more years? Do you want to commit American soldiers to fighting and dying on Ukrainian soil? Do you want to commit French and German soldiers to do that? Nobody before Trump did, so why would you expect Trump to? And if we're not doing that, then what exactly is your plan to restore Ukraine's borders?

What you want can be very different from what you can get.
Why are you so eager to surrender to Russia and do what Putin tells you?
Do you not understand the concept of negotiations? Because it doesn't seem like it to me.

So let me make it very simple. Do you want a negotiated end to this conflict, or do you want it to keep going for years more? And if you want a negotiated end, what exactly do you think that Russia would actually agree to in order to end it? Because you don't seem to actually have any idea on that front.
 
Do you want to fight this war to the last Ukrainian, or do you want the war to end soon?

Maybe ask the Ukrainians whether *they* wish to continue fighting? I think that we should give them as much support as we can as long as *they* are willing to fight.

You seem to think otherwise for some reason.

I want the war to end well for Ukraine. I think that we should give them as much support as we can as long as that is possible.

You seem to think otherwise for some reason.
 
Worth noting that the "demographic implosion" in Ukraine is less severe than in Russia.
Sure. But which outcome do you prefer: both Ukraine and Russia going extinct, or both surviving? The fact that Russia faces a demographic time bomb doesn't really help Ukraine here and now, not when Putin seems quite willing to eat his seed grain.
 
Maybe ask the Ukrainians whether *they* wish to continue fighting?
Oh, they absolutely have a say in this. Any negotiated settlement that Ukraine doesn't agree to won't happen.
I want the war to end well for Ukraine.
And what does that mean? Because if they lose enough men, it doesn't end well regardless of any reclaimed territory or security guarantees. Furthermore, it's not just about what you want, it's about what can be achieved. What I want (an immediate end to the war, plus Ukraine reclaiming all its territory, plus security guarantees to make sure Russia never tries again) cannot be achieved. I suspect you would like something similar, and likewise I suspect what you want cannot be achieved either. So what's the best we can settle for? You still aren't actually answering that question.
 
We're not going to stop Russia killing people and grabbing their land by paying them off.
Depends on the payoff. Keep in mind, this war has massively hurt Russia. If the payoff is less than the cost, do they really have an incentive to try again?
 
It's a coup when the democratically elected president starts enacting the policies that voters elected him to enact? Yeah, no. That's Orwellian abuse of language right there.
It's a coup when he starts dismantling the checks and balances created by the Founding Fathers to prevent exactly what is happening now, one man having unchecked power. Do you not want to live in a democracy? Do you honestly believe he will stand down at the end of the current term, and hold a free and fair election?
 
Maybe ask the Ukrainians whether *they* wish to continue fighting?
People like him tend to not recognize Ukraine as a sovereign country, more like a European colony or an American territory that the West can do with as we please. The fact that they have their own wishes and needs, and their own sovereign government that answers to makes it own decisions without consulting the EU or US, seems completely incomprehensible to them. Incredibly Weird, but that's trumpkins for you.
 
It's a coup when he starts dismantling the checks and balances created by the Founding Fathers to prevent exactly what is happening now, one man having unchecked power. Do you not want to live in a democracy? Do you honestly believe he will stand down at the end of the current term, and hold a free and fair election?
Are these rhetorical questions? I ask because I'm certain of Zig's views on the subject. As long as it is their guy that is king, they see nothing wrong with the dismanting of the democracy.
 
It's a coup when he starts dismantling the checks and balances created by the Founding Fathers to prevent exactly what is happening now, one man having unchecked power. Do you not want to live in a democracy? Do you honestly believe he will stand down at the end of the current term, and hold a free and fair election?
You know there's no real point in replying to strawmen posts that aren't made in good faith. Correct their lies when neccessary and let them scream into the void the rest of the time. They are a cult, they can't be saved.
 
Okay then, suppose there's a "deal" with Russia, and it gets its "reward", and it stops attempting to conquer all of Ukraine tomorrow.

What about the next day? What stops Russia from resuming its conquest? You going to bribe it again to stop?

What stops Russia from attempting to conquer another neighbor? You going to bribe it again to stop? And the next? And the next? And the next?

Because surely you're not stupid enough to think Russian ambitions end with half of Ukraine, or all of Ukraine.
We might have to bribe Russia to stop simply because they might not be able to afford to stop otherwise. Financially speaking, Russia has already lost the war, in that they have paid more to take over Ukraine than Ukraine is worth to them. They have heavily militarized their economy since the start of the war, and might not be able to afford to demobilize without causing an economic crash. If that is the case, they might try to prop up their economy by trying to steal resource-rich areas controlled by their neighbors. All the more reason for Ukraine to insist on solid security guarantees.
 
It's a coup when he starts dismantling the checks and balances created by the Founding Fathers to prevent exactly what is happening now, one man having unchecked power.
He doesn't have unchecked power. He has done nothing to expand the power of the executive branch. What he has done is consolidate power within the executive branch, but that was always supposed to be the case. The executive branch wasn't supposed to be ruled by a class of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats.
Do you not want to live in a democracy?
Indeed. Which is why I'm fine with the President being in actual control of the executive branch.
Do you honestly believe he will stand down at the end of the current term, and hold a free and fair election?
Yes. Nothing he's doing now suggests he won't.
 

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