Trump's Executions Drive

[angrysoba]

Yeah, part of my problem with this whole thing is... that the controversy is around whether or not it is seemly to do this during a transistion. Is that really the point?

People are opposed to Trump because these are happening during a transitition, whereas the Democrats are saying, "Oh puh-leaze! wait until we get to do it!"

No, surely the question is whether or not captial punishment is bad.

Is capital punishment bad?

I think yes, they are. They are blood sacrifices in the sense that the executions don't fulfill any kind of deterrent effect, as far as I understand. And they don7t bring people back to life, as far as I understand. So the execution is visceral satisfaction alone.

So if you are against it, stop making dumb arguments about when they take place, FFS.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yeah, part of my problem with this whole thing is... that the controversy is around whether or not it is seemly to do this during a transistion. Is that really the point?

People are opposed to Trump because these are happening during a transitition, whereas the Democrats are saying, "Oh puh-leaze! wait until we get to do it!"

No, surely the question is whether or not captial punishment is bad.

Is capital punishment bad?

I think yes, they are. They are blood sacrifices in the sense that the executions don't fulfill any kind of deterrent effect, as far as I understand. And they don7t bring people back to life, as far as I understand. So the execution is visceral satisfaction alone.

So if you are against it, stop making dumb arguments about when they take place, FFS.

This thread is about Trump, choosing this time to suddenly pursue a bunch of executions. One needn't have a position for or against the death penalty to want to discuss why now, why this, in the middle of much more important events. Not everything must skew immediately to a discussion of "I like it!" or "I hate it!" to the eclipsing of all else.

I'm neither for nor against tapdancing, but were Trump to suddenly call press conferences and tapdance for eight hours at a time every day on the White House portico you can bet people would want to discuss that, and it wouldn't necessarily require every participant to be either for or against tapdance in general.

 

[Babbylonian]

If there's a silver lining to Trump's murder spree, it sets a precedent for executive meddling in every federal death penalty case. A president opposed to the barbaric practice can feel free to commute the sentence every time it's handed out.

 

[CORed]

While simultaneously claiming to be Christians!

And pro-life.

 

[Mader Levap]

Is capital punishment bad?
I think yes, they are. They are blood sacrifices in the sense that the executions don't fulfill any kind of deterrent effect, as far as I understand. And they don7t bring people back to life, as far as I understand. So the execution is visceral satisfaction alone.

Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part. I guess it is easy to forget arguments that are harder to defeat.

Sometimes it is just about physical elimination of someone that, if gotten free, would do it again and again and again...

Like shooting down rabid dog. It is not dog's fault it got infected and went nuts. It will still be killed.

 

[Modified]

I think yes, they are. They are blood sacrifices in the sense that the executions don't fulfill any kind of deterrent effect, as far as I understand. And they don7t bring people back to life, as far as I understand. So the execution is visceral satisfaction alone.

They are not a deterrent for crime, but they seem to be an effective negotiating tool for prosecutors in many cases. Not that I think it's worth it.

 

[zooterkin]

Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part. I guess it is easy to forget arguments that are harder to defeat.

Sometimes it is just about physical elimination of someone that, if gotten free, would do it again and again and again...

Like shooting down rabid dog. It is not dog's fault it got infected and went nuts. It will still be killed.

That might be a persuasive argument if you could guarantee 100% that the right person is being executed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That might be a persuasive argument if you could guarantee 100% that the right person is being executed.

And that starts with access to very good attorneys which these guys almost never had at the time of their convictions.

Then there are police and prosecutors who have no qualms concealing exculpatory evidence because they are sure that ****** did it.


Teens should not be given the death penalty.

Despite not having a legal case to plead insanity, the mental health of the criminal needs to be considered in a death penalty. I doubt you could find a psychiatrist or psychologist who would think a woman who cut a baby out of the womb to pass it off as her own was sane at the time that occurred. The next person scheduled to die did just that.

Then there is the issue with the fact blacks represent a disproportionate number of death penalties among convicted murderers.

How many people on death row were convicted based on an unreliable eye-witness? Or based on someone else getting a deal for snitching on someone else? Both arguments for a moratorium on death penalties.

And I haven't even gotten into police interrogation techniques.

 

[Pixel42]

Sometimes it is just about physical elimination of someone that, if gotten free, would do it again and again and again...

There was a documentary a few years ago in which death row prison guards were interviewed and said the majority of prisoners on it were people who, if they were released, would never commit any crime again, let alone another murder. They knew exactly which prisoners were in the category you describe, and they were very much the exception.

There was one case I remember reading about of a woman who, after an horrific childhood, committed a murder in her teens whilst out of her mind on drugs. In prison she finally got the help she needed, got clean and starting working with young offenders, helping many to get straight. The prison staff tried to get her sentence commuted, saying she was resigned to never being released but could still do a lot of good. Needless to say she was executed regardless.

 

[turingtest]

That might be a persuasive argument if you could guarantee 100% that the right person is being executed.

Which is my main objection to the death penalty as a system- there have been 167 exonerations of prisoners on death row in the United States since 1973 (Wikipedia). It's one thing to say that someone who has killed and not been executed for it could go on to kill "again and again and again," without showing any evidence that it has actually happened; but to use that argument when evidence does show that mistakes in the system can lead to innocent people being killed again and again is just specious. Surely it would be simple enough to make a life sentence an actual sentence for life, no possibility of release without exoneration, which would satisfy the "again and again" objection, and have the benefit of making possible exoneration meaningfully possible.

And remember, these successful and timely exonerations are only the ones we know about. The Innocence Project doesn't really have the time or resources to devote to exonerating dead people; and it's for sure that the system that sent these people to death row to begin with isn't set up for, or has any interest in, exonerating them, dead or alive. The US justice system is an adversarial one, two sides competing for a win; I would say for most cases, that's sufficient- maybe not perfect justice, but usually close enough. But for cases where the penalty for a loss is irreversible, maybe there should be a little more care taken in the name of actual justice than just to make it a contest. (And, of course, when the impetus for the final act is nothing but a loser like Trump trying to score political points, to call that "justice" would be a travesty.)

 

[Mader Levap]

That might be a persuasive argument if you could guarantee 100% that the right person is being executed.

Yes, court mistakes was major factor in my decision that death penalty is not something that should be done.

My problem here was with someone pretending there are only two possible arguments for death penalty, including moronically ridiculous "executing someone won't resurrect their victims" mother of all strawmans.

 

[EHocking]

While simultaneously claiming to be Christians!

Because of their claim to be christians IMO.
An eye for an eye and all that is at the root of their “loving” religion.

Muslim nations are no different than their christian brothers in revelling in state-sanctioned murder.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Perhaps the moderators would be so kind as to split this thread? One could be about the OP which was

What do people think of Trump's transitional executions drive?

and the other could be the same old "death penalty bad!" vs "death penalty good!". That one could be placed in "Religion and Philosophy", where it belongs, and there people could mouth the same old old old old old old old old old old tired arguments they've always done whenever a thread mentions executions.

 

[rockinkt]

While simultaneously claiming to be Christians!

Why are two mutually exclusive in your mind? I'm an atheist but I've read the bible and the bible calls for a lot of capital punishment.

 

[Vixen]

Perhaps the moderators would be so kind as to split this thread? One could be about the OP which was



and the other could be the same old "death penalty bad!" vs "death penalty good!". That one could be placed in "Religion and Philosophy", where it belongs, and there people could mouth the same old old old old old old old old old old tired arguments they've always done whenever a thread mentions executions.

Problem is, politics is inextricably bound up with the law and justice issues. Trump could be seen on the one hand to be playing up to his support populist base, trying to make himself a hero to them. OTOH it could be seen to be an act of pure depravity on his part. Rather like King Henry VIII using the law to get his own way in his personal life and bully people. What goes through the mind of an absolute ruler who has the power to issue a pardon yet willfully denies it, knowing the pain and anguish that must bring to the person who knows that at break of dawn, he or she has to make their way to the execution chamber and be put to death.

 

[angrysoba]

Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part. I guess it is easy to forget arguments that are harder to defeat.

Sometimes it is just about physical elimination of someone that, if gotten free, would do it again and again and again...

Like shooting down rabid dog. It is not dog's fault it got infected and went nuts. It will still be killed.

Who are "you guys"?

Oh, you're right though. That is a really tough one. How do you stop a murderer from doing it again, and again, and again.

I dunno. Maybe prison? Would that be too difficult?

Oh, but then they might break out of prison and start their rampages of murder all over again?

Is that really an argument that is so hard to defeat? You just make sure you have good prisons that keep people locked up, or rehabilitate them (if possible), etc....

Do you honestly think that is some kind of unassailable task and some knock-down argument? Jeeeeez....

 

[angrysoba]

Yes, court mistakes was major factor in my decision that death penalty is not something that should be done.

My problem here was with someone pretending there are only two possible arguments for death penalty, including moronically ridiculous "executing someone won't resurrect their victims" mother of all strawmans.

It's a shame that the one you thought I forgot and thought was a very impressive argument was itself moronically ridiculous. I mean, I would be a little embarrassed if I were you.

 

[Garrison]

Trump hate aside ... like that's possible here.

The death penalty exists for a reason.
As said earlier, if it is on the books then it should be taken seriously.
Don't murder people if you don't want to end up in that situation.

Also don't be a person with a below average IQ the police can manipulate into confessing.

Don't behave in a way the police find suspicious, like being too emotional or not emotional enough.

Don't expect the police to conduct lineups/photo arrays in fair/competent manner...

Etc, etc.

 

[Mader Levap]

Do you honestly think that is some kind of unassailable task and some knock-down argument? Jeeeeez....

Nope. I think this argument is way, way better than these two that you presented, though.

It's a shame that the one you thought I forgot and thought was a very impressive argument was itself moronically ridiculous. I mean, I would be a little embarrassed if I were you.

I would be embarrassed if I peddled "but executing someone won't bring their victims back to life" as if it was some serious argument.
Show me anyone seriously arguing that we should execute murderers because that would magically resurrects their victims - and I will retract my judgement of that argument.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why are two mutually exclusive in your mind? I'm an atheist but I've read the bible and the bible calls for a lot of capital punishment.

The Bible calls for a lot of stuff including stuff that contradicts almost all the other stuff.