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That list is not very specific. I don't doubt that you can find examples of things I would disagree with, but I don't see anything rendering it "impossible to kick them out of power, regardless of what the electorate desires".

Here's the link again from my post with the list you find not specific and then read the actual report, "A Democracy Crisis in the Making: How State Legislatures are Politicizing, Criminalizing, and Interfering with Election Administration" which is the first link (conveniently produced in red lettering). That should give you enough specificity.
 
How am I ignoring those things? Obviously the minority will have things that they are fixated on. If they didn't, there would be no problem. It could be the nature of the Trinity, or the evils of idolatry for all I care.

Because the driving force on the Right in American politics is conspiracy theories and science denial, based on short term profit greed.
Grab what you can while you can.
 
Here's the link again from my post with the list you find not specific and then read the actual report, "A Democracy Crisis in the Making: How State Legislatures are Politicizing, Criminalizing, and Interfering with Election Administration" which is the first link (conveniently produced in red lettering). That should give you enough specificity.
Lists of how many bills have been passed relating to elections doesn't interest me. Do you have any examples of states where gerrymandering means that even a 2/3 Democrat majority would be unable to capture the legislature. We had the example of Wisconsin, but it looks like Obama was able to slap McCain silly with 56% of the vote.

The claim had been that gerrymandering was going on to the most terrible degree as to result in an unchallengeable Republican hold on power.
 
Because the driving force on the Right in American politics is conspiracy theories and science denial, based on short term profit greed.
Grab what you can while you can.
Just because you are fixated about it doesn't mean I have to make it the center of my argument.
 
Because of Urbanization, the disparity between Rural and Urban representation has been growing for decades, and will continue to do so.

shuttlt, do you think that there should at some point be a rebalancing, or do you want to exacerbate the divide?
 
Another consideration is the supposed core tenant of Republicanism, which is " no taxation without representation".
Urban areas pay way more in taxes than rural areas, and receive way less federal assistance.

It is no wonder that many City dwellers feel disenfranchised compared to less populated parts of America.
 
Because of Urbanization, the disparity between Rural and Urban representation has been growing for decades, and will continue to do so.

shuttlt, do you think that there should at some point be a rebalancing, or do you want to exacerbate the divide?

But now we are talking an 80/20 split between urban and rural....at some point they are too small.
 
But now we are talking an 80/20 split between urban and rural....at some point they are too small.

True.

Which is why States should try to attract more citizens instead of making sure that only supporters of your Party would want to live in your State.
 
I don't see that. What is impossible about it? The examples I've been shown are ones where the Republican's get 45% and still win. What is impossible about beating them under those circumstances? Back in 2012 the counties were split Republican / Democrat about 50/50 based on Obama getting about 53% of the vote. In '08 Obama blew all those counties away.
[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Wisconsin_Presidential_Election_Results_2008.svg/310px-Wisconsin_Presidential_Election_Results_2008.svg.png[/qimg]
Has redistricting changed that much since '08?

I wasn't even talking about gerrymandering even, in the main. Look back to that not-very-specific list and you'll not see gerrymandering. I'll let others carry on about gerrymandering.
 
Lists of how many bills have been passed relating to elections doesn't interest me. Do you have any examples of states where gerrymandering means that even a 2/3 Democrat majority would be unable to capture the legislature. We had the example of Wisconsin, but it looks like Obama was able to slap McCain silly with 56% of the vote.

The claim had been that gerrymandering was going on to the most terrible degree as to result in an unchallengeable Republican hold on power.
That wasn't MY claim, others brought up gerrymandering.

Bills that will allow the will of the voters to be denied - passed legally - doesn't concern you? Why on earth not?
 
Darn, I managed to delete my original reply.

That would be a recipe for continual strife (if different parties are in charge of the Executive and Legislative branches) and it gives sparsely populated areas disproportionate political power. Why should there be a geographical basis for the system ?
The cause of the strife is that you have significant parts of the population who are at odds about an issue that they feel is existential. The most a voting system can do to resolve this is to force both sides to come to the table to by deadlocking the government. If that doesn't work, you'd better hope the two groups are sufficiently geographically isolated from one another that you can solve the problem by allowing them to do their own thing in their own area. If that fails, all you have left is hard power to resolve it.

Anyway, that's not the way it works in the US, the three branches of government, the legislative, the executive and judicial are equal so the executive isn't in charge to any great extent. Whatever they want to do can be overturned by the other two branches.
I didn't mean to imply the branches weren't coequal.

One party has managed to both politicise the legislative branch, and lock down that branch.
Perhaps. That doesn't change the basic problem though that the public is deeply divided.

Without a multi-party political process, proportional representation, independent administration of the elections and more transparency in the lobbying process, there's little or no incentive to compromise.
The word "independent" is doing a lot of work there. There is a story about Maggie Smith when she was preparing for the role of Miss Jean Brodie. Somebody recommended she talk to their aunt to pick up the appropriate Edinburgh accent. The aunt was terribly offended and told Maggie Smith in a Jean Brodie accent that she had it on the best of authority that she had no accent whatsoever.

The issues with election administration are by their nature political. You can't make them non-political by handing the question over to some "independent" body. Would you be keen to hand such a power to an "independent" body whose members believed in States rights, election security, and the need to make sure rural counties views were representative? It's always easier to regard "independent" bodies as neutral and apolitical when you expect to broadly align with them politically.

I don't think proportional representation solves the issue either. Would changing the Democrats into the Greens, the Socialists and the Liberals, solve anything? Would doing the same to the Republican's. Trumps approval in the Republican party is 85%. I don't know, given PR you could maybe pull some support off him with a Rhino GOP party that would refuse to cooperate so you could keep him from power. The basic problem in terms of the country being split isn't fixed by that though.

The US has none of those things and has demonstrated no desire to move towards those things so you're left with government by minority (as is now the case in the US where one party has representation at a national and state level far beyond its electoral performance) or majority.
That isn't the problem though unless one is ideologically committed to some particular measure of the popular will determining elections. The problem is that the US is deeply divided.

It can't be any worse than the current system in the US where the will of the minority rules more often than not if Republicans are in power.
Well, this is kind of academic since the change isn't going to happen. I do agree that the changes you recommend would keep the minority out of power. That's like solving a problem with a faulty pressure cooker by holding down the valve. Maybe the populist, conservative tendency will die down, and maybe it won't. I don't see the forces that drove it into being having stopped, so it just seems to me that this solution would be a way of avoiding dealing with the problem.

Republicans have won the presidential popular vote once since 1988 IIRC.
Bush won the popular vote in '04, but I get the general point. I just don't think a few points here or there is important. It's not as if the system is actually designed to deliver a president who is the embodiment of the popular will. To pick one issue amongst many, with rare exceptions, you are given candidates who have been selected by the donors. You don't choose a representative of the popular will. You choose which of a number of candidates who represent elite will you want in charge.
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I appreciate you probably aren't in favour of the influence of donors, but quibbling over a few percentage points in a system that is skewed and rigged six ways from Sunday just seems pointless to me, except in the partisan sense of "but for those percentage points my side would have won".

The 50 Republicans in the senate represent 41 million fewer people than the 50 Democrat senators.
And? When the UN General Assembly votes, they don't do it on the basis of population size either. It's not uncommon to operate in this way. It's been the system since the beginning, so the Republicans can hardly be blamed for this.
 
That wasn't MY claim, others brought up gerrymandering.

Bills that will allow the will of the voters to be denied - passed legally - doesn't concern you? Why on earth not?
I can't argue every single election issue simultaneously. I am arguing about gerrymandering at the moment. I'm not just going to take some political sides vague description of how terrible the laws are that the other side are trying to pass of the back of a vague hand wave in the way that document is doing. If there is some smoking gun obviously corrupt law that clearly has some terrible impact on democracy in a state that you want to show me that doesn't require one to presuppose corrupt intent, then by all means show me.

Gerrymandering seemed to be a good claim to look into, so I am looking into that. At the moment it just looks to be a reworking of the same old complaint about the electoral college not representing the popular vote. It may be convincing if you expect the popular vote to match the outcome, if you don't then there doesn't seem to be anything here.
 
I wasn't even talking about gerrymandering even, in the main. Look back to that not-very-specific list and you'll not see gerrymandering. I'll let others carry on about gerrymandering.
Fine. But you'll need to be specific. That document you linked covers hundreds of bills at a high level. I'm not doing the homework of digging out all those bills. If there is some particular example you think I should look at, I'll look.
 
The issues with election administration are by their nature political. You can't make them non-political by handing the question over to some "independent" body. Would you be keen to hand such a power to an "independent" body whose members believed in States rights, election security, and the need to make sure rural counties views were representative? It's always easier to regard "independent" bodies as neutral and apolitical when you expect to broadly align with them politically.
There is a way around this: you could legislate a requirement (or pass a citizen's referendum) that any redistricting map must conform to an efficiency gap of something like 7%, as has been proposed by the professors who developed the math for the efficiency gap:
The efficiency gap measurement aims to summarize the effect of gerrymandering by identifying all of the wasted votes (votes that didn't contribute to a win, which gerrymandering seeks to maximize for the other party) in victory and defeat for both parties. It then adds them up, finds the difference between the two sides, and divides that by the total number of votes in a state. This yields a single percentage figure: the efficiency gap.
Source.

Also:
There are two potential standards for whether a state’s congressional map is in violation: the 7 percent threshold suggested earlier, or if the plan costs a party two seats in a state. Small states are likelier to fail the percentage threshold test, while the two-seat threshold is more likely to trip up big states. There are also judgment calls needed on how to handle uncontested elections — here, we impute the results and turnout using a model based on recent congressional and presidential election results. But the conclusion is basically the same no matter the approach.
We don't need to throw up our hands and doom electoral maps to mere power relationships.
 
Because of Urbanization, the disparity between Rural and Urban representation has been growing for decades, and will continue to do so.
For one thing, I think one needs to distinguish between suburban and urban. Suburban is about 50% of people and is kind of even between Republicans and Democrats. For another, will it continue? With so many people working from home over the past couple of years, I wonder whether that trend may not see a shift.

shuttlt, do you think that there should at some point be a rebalancing, or do you want to exacerbate the divide?
You guys always come at this as if I'm looking at these imbalances and saying "beyond X%, it's immoral". I'm not. I'm saying that there are consequences to all these things.
 
There is a way around this: you could legislate a requirement (or pass a citizen's referendum) that any redistricting map must conform to an efficiency gap of something like 7%, as has been proposed by the professors who developed the math for the efficiency gap:
Source.

Also:

We don't need to throw up our hands and doom electoral maps to mere power relationships.
You are mistaking what the problem is. It isn't difficult to come up with ways of working out boundaries that give different results. The issue is that the decision of how to decide how to work out boundaries is political. The problem is that your side can't reach consensus with the other side. Saying "OK, let's use this formula to change the election system in a way that I think is fair and also makes me the winner" just adds another issue you don't have consensus on.

This idea that decision making can be made non-political and independent is a technocratic way of looking at the world. I watched a recent Tony Blair speech a few days ago. He was talking as if all the things he wanted to do were merely the necessary actions that needed to be taken and that people should rise above the politics and agree with him. :-) What could be more political than how you decide who should be in power?
 
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I merged the "Motives" thread into this one as it's the same exact topic and there's no need for yet another one.
Posted By: xjx388
 
You are mistaking what the problem is. It isn't difficult to come up with ways of working out boundaries that give different results. The issue is that the decision of how to decide how to work out boundaries is political.
It doesn't have to be political. There is a way to significantly reduce the influence of politics in redistricting.
The problem is that your side can't reach consensus with the other side.
Before a consensus is reached, there has to be an alternative to reach a consensus about. I'm still waiting for you to agree that there is an alternative that will reduce the influence of raw politics and power in redistricting, and that's where our conversation is.
Saying "OK, let's use this formula to change the election system in a way that I think is fair and also makes me the winner" just adds another issue you don't have consensus on.
The formula I'm suggesting is not constructed to make either side the winner, which is the whole point. If one side becomes the winner through using that formula for redistricting, that has more to do with the will of the people than the formula, whose effect is to **reduce** the influence of political gamesmanship in redistricting.
This idea that decision making can be made non-political and independent is a technocratic way of looking at the world. I watched a recent Tony Blair speech a few days ago. He was talking as if all the things he wanted to do were merely the necessary actions that needed to be taken and that people should rise above the politics and agree with him. :-) What could be more political than how you decide who should be in power?
The label "technocratic" does no work on the more primary issue. If you think that the plan I linked to does not significantly reduce the impact of raw politics and power in redistricting, then please make that case. If you can accept that the plan does reduce politics in redistricting, then please say so and we can move on.
 

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