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Cont: Trump's Coup - Part 3

Thermal said:
This is the maddening part of this argument. The source you cite is on exactly the same page as I am. Actually, your cite links to the main page, so I took a gamble at what you were referring to. From the article "Understanding Insurrection and Sedition":



This is what I have been saying since the actual J6. They should be charged with sedition (more properly, seditious conspiracy) and insurrection. But not for an attempted/incompetent/couldn't get anyone on board coup; simply for the violent interfering with our electoral process. A coup is one type of interference, with one objective. Disruption of the process is a different kind.
Please, without scanning my post for a gotcha to argue against, do you understand the point I have been making for a year now? I said during the actual Dildo Storm that the outgoing President should be charged with sedition and inciting imminent lawless action, and that the mad dogs be charged with insurrection (the actual violent acts, per your cited definition). But it was not an actual coup attempt. It was a different and unprecedented kind of insurrection.
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No, the "maddening part" of all of this is your continual denial that this was a coup attempt which you have been making for a year now.

Coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

The full description of 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

Charges against the Oathkeepers:
“The purpose of the conspiracy,” the indictment alleges, “was to oppose the lawful transfer of presidential power by force.” Rhodes was arrested Thursday in Texas.

The indictment charges that Rhodes and 10 other co-conspirators “coordinated travel across the country to enter Washington, D.C., equipped themselves with a variety of weapons, donned combat and tactical gear, and were prepared to answer Rhodes’s call to take up arms at Rhodes’s direction.” While painting Rhodes as the ringleader, the indictment alleges that “some co-conspirators also amassed firearms on the outskirts of Washington, D.C., distributed them among ‘quick reaction force’ (‘QRF’) teams, and planned to use the firearms in support of their plot to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power.” (Read the full indictment embedded below.)
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Did the Oathkeepers intend to "suddenly, violently and illegally seize power from the Congress (government)" by "stopping the lawful transfer of presidential power"?

According to the indictment, YES.

You just can't admit you are wrong so just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper.
 
varwoche said:
I like to think you're mis-remembering, and not foisting a blatant falsehood. Here's the Cline Center’s conclusion, which I called to your attention in the prior thread.

Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.​

You overlaid your concept of what constitutes a credible threat in this gross distortion of Clines's findings.
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Yeah, I brought up the Cline's finding four days before you (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13664545#post13664545) and all I got was a 'certain someone' telling me how wrong Cline was because "That is dated 1/27/21. Well before the FBI investigation. Comical," and because it wasn't "organized". Of course, you'll never hear him admit he was wrong, per usual.
 
Upchurch said:
:dl:

You are so full of it.
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To be fair there is some sort of strange logic in it. I will give it a go, but understand I don't believe a damn word of it.

Here we go. A coup either succeeds or it doesn't. If it succeeds then its a coup. If it fails then its a riot. There is no such thing as an "attempted coup". One either has an actual successful coup or a mere riot. It is impossible that anything in between could ever happen. There is no middle ground. If a coup succeeds, then it is a coup. If a coup fails, then it was never a coup in the first place just some grumpy people. A coup can only actually be a coup if it succeeds.

I can't keep this up. It's too daft.
 
Every one of Thermal's objections have been either immediately or eventually rebuffed.

They didn't have a plan: Yes, they did. Get Pence to not certify the vote, sending it back to the states.
They didn't seize anything: Yes, they did. They held the Senate floor and attempted to seize the House floor.
They didn't have coordination: Yes, they did, as documents have shown.
They haven't been charged with sedition: Now, they have, probably with more to come.

"while remaining open to new evidence" :rolleyes:
 
abaddon said:
To be fair there is some sort of strange logic in it. I will give it a go, but understand I don't believe a damn word of it.

Here we go. A coup either succeeds or it doesn't. If it succeeds then its a coup. If it fails then its a riot. There is no such thing as an "attempted coup". One either has an actual successful coup or a mere riot. It is impossible that anything in between could ever happen. There is no middle ground. If a coup succeeds, then it is a coup. If a coup fails, then it was never a coup in the first place just some grumpy people. A coup can only actually be a coup if it succeeds.

I can't keep this up. It's too daft.
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So a coup is like a souffle. If it succeeds, it's a souffle. If it fails, it's a custard. Got it.
 
shemp said:
So a coup is like a souffle. If it succeeds, it's a souffle. If it fails, it's a custard. Got it.
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I could have stopped it before it happened if I could have warned the right people unfortunately there was no one in the Government, that I could reach that I could Trust!
Sean Hannity and Alex Jones inspired the formation of the Oath Keepers, and if you saw Stewart Rhodes's Interview you can see they expected Trump to have a secret deal with the United States Military, and for Trump to declare the Insurrection act.
Exactly what I knew would cause this, and Mitch McConnell left the Capitol defenseless because he didn't want to Embarrass the Republicans with a large security Presence, while they voted to overturn democracy!
I just feel,so Sad I had too sit back and let this happen.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
I could have stopped it before it happened if I could have warned the right people unfortunately there was no one in the Government, that I could reach that I could Trust!
Sean Hannity and Alex Jones inspired the formation of the Oath Keepers, and if you saw Stewart Rhodes's Interview you can see they expected Trump to have a secret deal with the United States Military, and for Trump to declare the Insurrection act.
Exactly what I knew would cause this, and Mitch McConnell left the Capitol defenseless because he didn't want to Embarrass the Republicans with a large security Presence, while they voted to overturn democracy!
I just feel,so Sad I had too sit back and let this happen.
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Here's my story: I was born on June 1, 1942, THREE FULL DAYS before the battle of midway. With my super secret strategy that I still can't reveal on a count of my Country may need Me again someday, I could of guaranteed that the u.s. navy would have won that battle! But do you think Franklin Delayedorno Jewsavelt would listen to me? He was like "Nah, that kid's only 3 days old, fergittim! You can't trust me anyway!"

And now here we are today. So I know how you feel.
 
sackett said:
Here's my story: I was born on June 1, 1942, THREE FULL DAYS before the battle of midway. With my super secret strategy that I still can't reveal on a count of my Country may need Me again someday, I could of guaranteed that the u.s. navy would have won that battle! But do you think Franklin Delayedorno Jewsavelt would listen to me? He was like "Nah, that kid's only 3 days old, fergittim! You can't trust me anyway!"

And now here we are today. So I know how you feel.
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Did you know that if the Oath Keepers thought they would have Military support they would Try to take the Capitol on the 6th?

I did because I knew how stupid they were!
Stewart Rhodes has every book Jerome corsi ever wrote, he is a big Corsi and infowars fan.
 
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Pretty zany stuff.

"They never talk about that crowd. They talk about the people that walked down to the Capitol. They don't talk about the size of that crowd. I believe it was the largest crowd I've ever spoken [to] before and they were there to protest the election," Trump said.

He added: "The fake news never talks about it. They never talk about it. Exactly how many of those present at the Capitol complex on January 6 were FBI confidential informants, agents, or otherwise directly or indirectly with an agency of the United States government. People want to hear this."
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Trump calls the Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt a 'disgrace' and claims the FBI was behind the insurrection
https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...ce-officer-shot-ashli-babbitt-disgrace-2022-1
 
varwoche said:
I like to think you're mis-remembering, and not foisting a blatant falsehood. Here's the Cline Center’s conclusion, which I called to your attention in the prior thread.

Using Cline Center definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état. At the time of this writing, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project classifies the type of attempt as a dissident coup.​

You overlaid your concept of what constitutes a credible threat in this gross distortion of Clines's findings.
Click to expand...

You might note that I wasn't referring to their findings/conclusions. I said quite specifically that it was not what *I* call a coup, per *their* criteria.

Looking at their website, I see where the discrepancy lies. They have expanded the definition of a coup from "seizing/wresting power" to general insurrection, including preventing the enacting of any law. By their definition, I'd agree that it was an attempted coup, dissident fueled. But if you expand the definition of "coup" that far, there is no point to the word anymore.

That's really the bulk of the debate. "Is coup the right word for this brand of insurrection?" I don't think so, based on the usual meaning, but agree based on the Cline Center's broader one. Does that put us plus or minus in agreement?
 
Upchurch said:
…and do you believe him?
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Do I believe that the FBI was behind the capitol riot? Hell no. That is some next-level conspiracy theory stuff.

The Great Zaganza said:
Do you think a leader of a Party should promulgate such inflammatory lies?
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I don't think Trump should be the leader of the party. That is the main problem, as I see it. I think (hope?) they will distance themselves well before 2024, though. I believe some factors will come into play to force that outcome.
 
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