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Has this been disputed? I thought this had been an agreed fact by both sides for more than a year?


Well, if George Conway says it, it must be true.

No it hasn’t been disputed. Trump put his desires in writing. What’s new is Trump is no longer claiming the democrats stole the election. He just wanted the election results ignored.
 
No it hasn’t been disputed. Trump put his desires in writing. What’s new is Trump is no longer claiming the democrats stole the election. He just wanted the election results ignored.

Nah, he's still claiming it was rigged and it was the evil, radical Dems behind it.
 
No it hasn’t been disputed. Trump put his desires in writing. What’s new is Trump is no longer claiming the democrats stole the election. He just wanted the election results ignored.
When did he stop claiming that? Has he said he isn't claiming this anymore? This is genuinely news to me. I can't see why he would do that.
 
When did he stop claiming that? Has he said he isn't claiming this anymore? This is genuinely news to me. I can't see why he would do that.

Jan 30th, his statement that day made no mention of fraud.
 
Jan 30th, his statement that day made no mention of fraud.
Because he once failed to mention it, he is no longer claiming it? That is not a useful meaning of "no longer claiming it". He mentioned it a bunch the day before.
 
In that case, who knows? I might take over the US government tomorrow. If I do, I like you, is there any particular position you fancy? You can't be First Lady, that's the only restriction. I always thought the US needed a Grand Vizier, would that work?

[By the way, to anybody coming here from the Candace Owens thread.... I know the above wasn't labeled as such, and hence there was no way to know, but it is a joke. Please don't become alarmed. I do not in fact intend to seize control of the US government tomorrow. If I do, it will be a happy accident.]

Do you have any reply to my post #584?
 
Apologies, you are right, I missed that post.

1. That sounds like my option c. What's the difference?

Your option c was:
whatever power, legal or illegal, a group can wield to produce results is acceptable
In the first instance, my objection to the word "acceptable" remains. Going slightly beyond that, the question is a practical one. You couldn't have operated a monarchy that would have scored well on that scale being quoted earlier in the early middle ages. You'd have been conquered or deposed very quickly. The need to have the power to rule, and the balancing off of other powers and forces within and without has to come first before any moral considerations enter into it.

Once you have the power to rule, well... different people have different beliefs about the world. The problem in the US at the moment is that there are two groups that are too large to be ignored that have views about life that seem pretty incompatible. You either have to crush one of those groups, or you have to try and manage both groups so that they don't see the other as an existential threat. The problem with trying to play nice with both groups is that that the more powerful of the two is going to see that they can win by making that impossible, and the less powerful group can see that. It's a tricky problem.

After all the above is under control and solved, or we are choosing between different solutions, then moral questions enter into it. Otherwise, we are just having a pointless discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and ignoring somebody else impose their solution to the important problems.

2. Is your perspective on this issue applicable to any government, US or not?
Certainly.

3. Why do you not have an opinion on what ought to be the case?
Because I don't believe in a universal moral truth that any particular system of deciding on leaders needs to agree with. There have been many contexts where a perfect democracy would have been terrible. My view on this is practical and will change with circumstances. I think it is very useful to have people believe in a universal moral truth that makes the rules legitimate, but that doesn't mean it is actually true.
 
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Because I don't believe in a universal moral truth that any particular system of deciding on leaders needs to agree with. There have been many contexts where a perfect democracy would have been terrible. My view on this is practical and will change with circumstances. I think it is very useful to have people believe in a universal moral truth that makes the rules legitimate, but that doesn't mean it is actually true.
I wasn't careful in my wording. Which option do you prefer to live in?
 
That air Gapped Voting systems were hacked from China.
You can't hack from the internet a system not connected to the Internet and with paper ballot back up.
:-) There was a point where every claim they could find was thrown out there. The last time I heard Trump go on about fraud, it was more drop boxes, ballot harvesting, dirty rolls etc...
 
:-) There was a point where every claim they could find was thrown out there. The last time I heard Trump go on about fraud, it was more drop boxes, ballot harvesting, dirty rolls etc...

Trump wanted to seize the Dominion Voting Machines because he thought they were hacked by China and Venezuela, which is physically Impossible for air Gapped systems with paper ballot back ups.

 
Which option of my a/b/c options.
The questions assume a view of the world I do not hold. One could live in an entirely legally constituted hell hole that offended ones every moral fibre, or live in a far less law governed society that was quite pleasant. There is no answer to the question as you have formulated it. It is a meaningless, abstract question to me.
 
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The questions assume a view of the world I do not hold. There is no answer.

Can you not then create your own option d and articulate it? Or are you saying you have no preferences along the vague continuum my options set up?

Or, do you have *any* preferences about anything political?
 
Trump wanted to seize the Dominion Voting Machines because he thought they were hacked by China and Venezuela, which is physically Impossible for air Gapped systems with paper ballot back ups.

I'm well aware of that, apart from China... I don't recall that coming up a year ago. The company and the machines do not seem very good, but I don't think that it is a very fruitful line of enquiry.
 
Can you not then create your own option d and articulate it? Or are you saying you have no preferences along the vague continuum my options set up?

Or, do you have *any* preferences about anything political?
I've given you my political preferences multiple times already, just not at the abstract deracinated level that you want them. I think societies are better when they have some kind of positive shared national story and positive idea of national purpose that almost everybody buys into. If you can't do that, I think you are in a world of trouble. I think the family is the bedrock of society and that for societies to function, families have to function. I think the individual has replaced the family as the basic social unit to a degree that undermines society. Just like with a family, I think there are more important things to the happiness of its members than how democratic it is. I think democracy is largely a shell game. I think the 17th amendment was unfortunate because it meant that senators were no longer answerable to people who had a clue about what they were up to or how the grift worked and hence further centralised power. I think there are dark days ahead. I think getting concerned about whether or not your vote counts the same as somebody else is just fiddling while Rome burns. It might have been a meaningful question 150 years ago, but not now. What I care about is basically an onion that has my family at the center and goes out from there to the wider culture, community, and eventually nation my family is part of and the chain of all that going into the past. Right now it's looking pretty ******. Pretty standard stuff.
 
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